1. 8

    “becoming”

    we’re a long way from the days when the browser ever finished executing (!) a site.

    1. 9

      By the time I was ready to ditch the host operating system and install Plan 9 on bare hardware, my desire for the modern web experience had ebbed to an all time low.

      As much as I love Plan 9, not having a modern web browser is a non-starter. Too much of the world depends on that: I need to be able to read the news, video conference, consult reference materials, do my banking, order pizza, and so on…

      1. 14

        Ultimately, the magic of Plan 9 is you can write a file server for the seamless/grubhub API, and then all you need to do is mount your pizza place of choice, and kick off the delivery with

        echo cheese > /n/pizza

        1. 8

          Except someone needs to do the work, which is mostly a waste of time, not to mention api’s for services like that are far from stable.

          1. 6

            Mostly a waste of time?

            Once it’s done, it’s usually done for years. And APIs are getting better, not worse, generally.

            cat /n/pizza/toppings; echo 'pepperoni' >> /n/pizza/order; echo 'done' >> /n/pizza/order

            Actually sounds like a super simple way to order pizza. From here a pretty simple UI could be made.

            My issue with plan 9/9front is as sl says: it just isn’t for me at this time, and maybe never. But the ideas it has, can and have been, used in other places.

            When it comes to powerful text editing, the tools I use work across practically any OS I touch. And to me its those tools that are powerful as long as they remain small (so that they can maintainable, and portable).

            1. 3

              My point is the comment is making it seem unrealistically easy in terms of effort for reward to use ‘magic’ to implement a 9p filesystem for ordering pizza.

              1. 2

                I was joking :). Writing a 9p server isn’t exactly easy, but, to extend indirection’s comment, it would be kind of nice to grep and echo for pizza

                1. 3

                  Writing a 9p server is an hour or so of work, at least with lib9p. Maybe less. Getting it to order pizza is harder.

              2. 2

                Yeah, that sounds like a super simple way to order pizza because its skipping most of the things involved in ordering pizza, like choosing the pizza place and giving them your address and payment info.

                1. 2

                  All that stuff could be done once.

                  echo '1 north pole' > /n/pizza/address; cat /n/pizza/places; echo 'pizzapizza' >> /n/pizza/place; echo 'mypaymentinfosoateuhstaoheus' > /n/pizza/payment or whatever.

                  Not saying the same can’t be done with other systems.

                2. 0

                  username checks out

            2. 5

              i lean hard on my smartphone for some of this. so far, for the same reasons as you, i’ve been unable to avoid either one or the other (using a modern web browser on my pc or carrying a smartphone). what i can do is limit the number of vectors exposing me to harm, as often and as thoroughly as possible. it’s fair to say that if the modern web is a hard requirement then living in plan 9 may not be for you. realize, though, that in spite of the many enticements being offered, it is still perfectly possible to get a lot of computing done without directly transmitting data to surveillance companies.*

              (* sins of the telecom carriers sadly acknowledged.)

              1. 3

                You could do it the other way around and run Plan 9 in a browser, according to this little project:

                https://github.com/sirnewton01/9webdraw

                1. 2

                  There’s vmx or vnc for when you really need it.

                  1. 1

                    As it mentions, you can install another OS in a vm and run a browser there.

                    1. 1

                      I know, I just hate switching work environments back and forth…

                      1. 2

                        A modern browser is itself a VM.

                        1. 10

                          The browser is the new Emacs

                          1. 14

                            No, the browser is successful.

                            1. 8

                              M-x oh-snap

                              1. 3

                                I actually try this, you know…

                  1. 19

                    I set out to write a comprehensive answer to this, but I suspect it comes off as more polemical and less informative than I’d prefer:

                    http://helpful.cat-v.org/Blog/2019/12/03/0/

                    1. 5

                      Thanks for the write up. There is one thing missing and perhaps everybody using a computer would be interested in. How do you do backup?

                      1. 4

                        Thank you. I’m starting a series on individual howto topics. This would make a good one. Hint: http://man.9front.org/8/mkfs

                        1. 2

                          Excellent! Looking forward to this.

                      2. 2

                        Thank you for this (as well as your previous comments). Very informative.

                        1. 1

                          Thanks a lot, that was great. I’ve been following your sites for a while and I’ve always wondered what your day-to-day computing experience looked like

                        1. 15

                          TL;DR: 9front plays well with other systems with very few setup.

                          If you do not want to install 9front on your main disk and boot it by default, you may make use of a virtual machine, either local or hosted on a VPS or some computer at home.

                          Then you can connect to it through http://drawterm.9front.org/, which does provide a “plan 9 window” (think of SSH + X11 forwarding + SFTP onto a much simpler protocol).

                          It is surprising how well this works in practice since drawterm got resizing support : all the windows inside it will be resized equally well due to how plan9 handles resizes.

                          You can start a window in system (rio) in it, or directly one application (acme, sam, other…).

                          You can also copy paste from/to it, and have your local filesystem mounted inside 9front for sharing files between the local and remote.

                          After a while, you can integrate more of 9front onto your environment (replace a DNS (ndb+cs) / mail (imap,smtp,spamfilter) / VPN (tinc) server with it. It works well.

                          Given all of these are filesystems available as 9p streams, you can mount them onto other non-9front systems. Here comes all the fun: use 9p servers so that systems provide services to others. You can mount natively 9p on linux and through FUSE https://github.com/mischief/9pfs

                          Then the frontier between 9front systems and other systems tends to blur, and you achieved distribution of your computing through multiple systems. I haven’t been that far due to lack of time (and other project ongoing).

                          In this vision, you can use 9front for getting some work done, and make use of other systems for what else good they have and 9front lacks, and the other way around.

                          I did not test the other way around: running Linux or alike in 9front. as it has an hypervisor: http://man.9front.org/1/vmx

                          1. 4

                            If you use macOS and have a retina display, you can use my fork of drawterm, https://bitbucket.org/j-xy/drawterm/, which has the same metal backend as the one in plan9port devdraw.

                            By the way, with the new mailing list host, you can see all the “glory/gory” details about the community at https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans

                            1. 2

                              Nice, have you thought about getting your patches into the drawterm that 9front ships?

                              1. 3

                                Sure. I talked to folks on irc, but it didn’t get anywhere, apart from one commit, https://code.9front.org/hg/drawterm/rev/ff43e9bf3cea

                                1. 2

                                  post to the 9front mailing list or e-mail cinap directly.

                            2. 3

                              You got me to upload the ISO to a VPS on Vultr, and I can connect to its console and get a window manager! Thank you.

                              I don’t have a 3-button mouse, though. IIRC that’s pretty essential? Is there some way to emulate middle-click, particularly over the internet?

                              I see a terminal window open. How can I open a second?

                              I haven’t yet tried drawterm, but I look forward to trying it out next.

                              1. 2

                                Thank you for your input. This gradual approach does indeed sound sensible.

                              1. 8

                                no time this afternoon but i can post something that speaks to this later this evening. in the meantime: http://fqa.9front.org/fqa8.html

                                1. 7

                                  this is a good introduction: https://youtu.be/6m3GuoaxRNM

                                  1. 3

                                    Connect to Plan 9 from a mobile device: http://helpful.cat-v.org/Blog/2018/03/08/0/

                                1. 3

                                  Downloads bin img lib sites src tmp torrents who www

                                  1. 1

                                    Very similar to mine, except I use tmp as downloads. What’s in the who folder?

                                    1. 5

                                      it’s my white/yellow pages. nested directories starting with last names or handles. i run a variant of research unix http://man.cat-v.org/unix_8th/7/tel to search an index generated by a cron job.

                                      1. 2

                                        Can you share this (and perhaps others) script?

                                        1. 2

                                          each final directory under who/ contains files like addr, email, tn, etc. cron runs http://plan9.stanleylieber.com/rc/nutel >$home/lib/tel to update the index. search using https://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/754916eeedf1/rc/bin/tel

                                  1. 4

                                    I’ve never quite understood, but aren’t 9front releases mostly just bug-fixes? Or when was the last time a larger new feature was added.

                                    1. 10

                                      There are a whole bunch of larger features. The last release added support for the raspberry pi 4, which involved adding support for the arm64 architecture. Recently enough, there was hardware virtualization (http://man.cat-v.org/9front/1/vmx), a new VPN (http://man.cat-v.org/9front/8/tinc), transparent SSH networking (http://man.cat-v.org/9front/4/sshnet), new TTF renderer (http://man.cat-v.org/9front/2/ttf), a clone of dtrace (http://man.cat-v.org/9front/1/dtracy), and much more.

                                      1. 11

                                        Plan 9 is already more or less done. 9front just keeps up with the maintenance and provides a place for you to send your driver patch. You shouldn’t expect it to change in fundamental ways.

                                        1. 2

                                          So one shouldn’t expect them on creating a new browser or some larger application like that?

                                          1. 7

                                            If someone wants to make it, we’ll make it. I recently implemented git, although it’s not part of the base system right now.

                                            A browser is unlikely: Modern ones are giant. Minimal ones are incomplete. We’ve got 2 crappy ones already, and I’m not aware of anyone willing to sign up to write third, let alone chase the ever-shifting web standards to a degree that will make it more useful than mothra or abaco. My personal opinion is that we’d be better off improving and extending vmx to make running a web browser under an emulated Linux work better.

                                            1. 3

                                              but what do you expect? something like systemd, office or an ide like visual code? well plan9’s creators comes from the same team of unix so there inst a “large application” every pieces of software inside plan9 (and now 9front) fits together.

                                              1. 2

                                                That’s the thing, since I never used Plan 9 or related applications for extended periods, I wasn’t sure what to expect. Of course the examples you list aren’t probable, but Plan 9 users aren’t aliens – they still have the same problems they wish to solve as regular users.

                                                1. 3

                                                  this might give you some idea of where things stand, re: applications, and getting work done:

                                                  http://fqa.9front.org/fqa8.html

                                                  1. 1

                                                    I think you need to give a shot to know what we are talking about

                                              1. 1

                                                As for this, I am wondering, does the Plan9 folks feel that modern touch interfaces are inferior to mice? That is are such interfaces in the horizon at some point, or are they relegated as not useful at all?

                                                1. 2

                                                  given a choice i prefer mice. while the form factor of the desktop computer is no longer universal, the main reasons 9front lacks complex touch support are: the devs hate touchpads; touchscreen devices are multivariate, complex, and less open than their pc-like counterparts; and, most importantly, nobody has yet contributed any code.

                                                  for example, many years ago plan 9 was ported to the ipaq. the base system still ships with an onscreen keyboard designed for use with the ipaq’s stylus.

                                                  in 9front there is also support for serial wacom devices. i drew this in paint(1) on a thinkpad x61 tablet:

                                                  http://plan9.stanleylieber.com/paint/img/nooo.png

                                            1. 2

                                              feeling like rip van winkle here.

                                              1. 2

                                                I wish I could like Plan 9 and 9front but ever since my RSI got real bad I can’t use acme or 9term anymore, and some of the weird quirks were getting annoying. If only Plan 9 had come with normal terminals and normal editors and normal tools - then it probably would’ve recieved some adoption, but the UX is far too alien to switch people from POSIX.

                                                1. 4

                                                  Plan 9 has ed, sam, awk, sed, etc. The full raft of pipeline enabled tools. I guess you miss curses? But how does Ctrl-[foo] tomfoolery help with your RSI?

                                                  Plan 9 was pretty much dead before Linux really got off the ground, mass adoption wise. Even before the web was a requirement. Back then, people were mad about the license, and FUD spread quickly in the era of the BSD lawsuits.

                                                  Most of the stuff that’s missing is missing on purpose. The authors didn’t want to repeat the same mistakes, and preferred to keep the base system spartan. Worse being better. The onus was on users to implement desired features, with no expectation of having those changes accepted back into the system. Kind of like Research UNIX.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    But how does Ctrl-[foo] tomfoolery help with your RSI?

                                                    I don’t use many programs that require the ctrl key for normal usage, but I use an ergodox and ctrl is under my thumb anyhow where it’s far more sufferable on a bad say. Sam and acme require massive mouse usage. ed, although it is the standard text editor, really does not work for me as an editing environment.

                                                    Even if you consider with these tools the gang’s all here - you can’t scroll terminals without the mouse, you can’t interrupt a process using the keyboard from a command line (instead of inside rio’s terminal where it is del), just weird little things all throughout the UX that made it feel like things suck.

                                                    1. 2

                                                      I use the sam -d option (no graphics), which presents an interface similar to ed.

                                                      Scrolling in a terminal is not tied to the mouse; up arrow/down arrow, pgup/pgdn, home/end, also work fine. In 9front’s rio you can even hold down shift to cause the arrow keys to scroll only one line.

                                                      Many programs respond to Ctl-d (and other signals), but it sounds like you’re complaining specifically about running rc on UNIX, where indeed, many terminal’s default settings will not honor Del in the way rc expects. This is an artifact of your specific combination of tools, not really a fault of Plan 9, which doesn’t expect you to be running its tools on UNIX.

                                                      If you don’t like it you don’t like it, but some of these criticisms consist essentially of misunderstandings about how the system works. It is true Plan 9 asks the user to reconsider entrenched habits, but that’s going to be true of any sufficiently radical departure from the status quo.

                                                      I used to be a vi purist.

                                                      1. 2

                                                        Re job control: you might want to check out hubfs: https://bitbucket.org/mycroftiv/ants9front/src/default/

                                                      2. 2

                                                        you can’t interrupt a process using the keyboard from a command line (instead of inside rio’s terminal where it is del)

                                                        What do you mean, “from a command line”? How is that distinct from a Rio terminal? Do you mean the VGA text console? Why are you using that? It’s basically there so that you can start rio, or debug a CPU server.

                                                    2. 2

                                                      https://www.ueber.net/who/mjl/plan9/plan9-obsd.html

                                                      Plan9 can be mostly driven from its filesystem.

                                                      Also you might want to try rlwrap drawterm -G which adds a curses input layer over a plain text rc shell.

                                                      1. 2

                                                        If you want normal editors and normal tools, you already know where to get them. Why bother with plan 9?

                                                        1. 3

                                                          Presumably because once you get out of the basic things like editors and terminals, trying to do more advanced things on plan9 are Just Better. Classic example: containers/jails. Not sure if Plan 9 has the tools for application-level isolation to this extent, but having an actually uniform device interface model with namespaces and per-application mount points and such is far superior to Linux’s random piles of kernel-defined capabilities.

                                                          1. 2

                                                            Classic example: containers/jails. Not sure if Plan 9 has the tools for application-level isolation to this extent

                                                            It doesn’t. Take a look at the ‘#/’ device. With it, access ‘/’. To get rid of it, you need to get rid of other things like creating pipes.

                                                            Edit: Also, the people suggesting changes to plan 9 invariably don’t care enough to actually work on those changes. There’s not much interest in back-seat drivers.

                                                          2. 1

                                                            It has a better system architecture, it has a better design ethos, and I like a lot of the tools more or equally as much as the POSIX equivalent.

                                                            1. 3

                                                              FWIW, vim and emacs have both been ported to Plan 9. There even exists a UNIX-y terminal emulator called vt(1).

                                                        1. 2

                                                          Reposing here what I said on Tildes, because it’s relevant to the discussion.

                                                          This article has good historical context and presents an interesting case, but I have to say, the title and the conclusion are both representative of a very problematic assumption that underlies a lot of wrongheaded actions and opinions we see in society and even in government.

                                                          “Using a phone” is not a meaningful activity. The computer, handheld, laptop, or desktop, is a tool to do something. If that something is press the Skinner box-like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc refresh button, sure, that’s probably not good, but I can’t see any parent or psychologist in good faith saying that the literal hundreds of hours I spent playing Kerbal Space Program in high school had “a damaging – and perhaps permanent – effect on [my] developing brain”. It taught me the calculus, and some orbital mechanics and aerodynamics, which I’m currently having formalized in college.

                                                          Confusingly, the article makes this point and then retreats from it, with the flippant assertion that “World of Warcraft beats Wikipedia hands down.”

                                                          Really? Ever been stuck in a Wikipedia rabbit hole? The same thing used to happen to me with my parents’ 1980s Encyclopedia Britannica before I was ever allowed to use a computer. That stuff is just interesting.

                                                          The problem is not instantaneous mass communication. The problem is that large companies are harnessing instantaneous mass communication to fuck people over. Stop using corporate social media and the problem disappears.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            The problem only disappears if critical mass (adoption) is somehow reversed. I can quit social media, but I can’t avoid it when dealing with other people. The mass adoption and inextricable integration into daily life is the part that changes the equation from a matter of personal taste to a matter of ecology.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              I think we’re talking about different problems. If the problem is “technology addiction”, you absolutely can avoid addiction while using corporate social media when it’s absolutely necessary, just as I took Tramadol after surgery and never became addicted.

                                                              1. 3

                                                                If we parse this finely, the problem per se is not even tech addiction, but the observed negative results thereof. These negative results may only be observed in a specific formulation of tech addiction; they may not even be causally linked to tech addiction. That’s why I insist on pulling the context (read: bigger picture, including lateral factors such as other people’s behavior, which I can’t control) into any discussion of individual tech addiction. We don’t get addicted in a vacuum.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  We probably need a good working definition of “addiction”. I believe I heard somewhere that addiction is doing something repeatedly that you enjoy at the time but later feel like it was a bad thing. An identifying pattern is deciding not to do it again or cut back, then doing it again anyway. So it’s not just “wasting time playing games”. It’s more like “Waking up at 30 and realizing that you tried to stop playing games over and over again so you could go to college but you were never able to”

                                                                  Based on this definition, you could be plugged in 24/7 to tech your entire life and not be addicted. It’s not the tech. I don’t think it’s broken people – or people who make bad choices. Especially with AI getting involved, even if AI is way oversold, the system will optimize around keeping you plugged in. You begin to lose agency.

                                                                  We don’t get addicted in a vacuum.

                                                                  It’s informative to look at command centers in old sci-fi movies and early battleships. People did complex things (supposedly) involving lots of tech .. .but the audience and the other crew members could observe what’s going on from 30 feet away. It allowed for a social connection and some cross-checking.

                                                            2. 1

                                                              You are correct it is a tool. It’s a wonderful and amazing tool. We’re lucky to have it.

                                                              Stop using corporate social media and the problem disappears.

                                                              This sounds like over-generalized BS to me. That’s funny, since it seems to be the same point you were making about my article. (grin)

                                                              There’s a thought experiment to be done here which clears things up. Imagine a world with no social media. No BigCorp tech fucking people over. Everything online is something that’s good-for-you and edifying. (Also pretend that the phrase “good for you” has some meaningful and not vague meaning)

                                                              That’s a lot of pretending! But we can do that. It may be easier for me since I saw the entire thing evolve from nothing.

                                                              Gamification doesn’t go anywhere. Optimizing for site stickiness doesn’t go anywhere. The dopamine-click-reward response doesn’t go anywhere. Multi-function devices don’t go anywhere.

                                                              There was a reason I went back to Beethoven to start this – and it’s not that life was somehow the halcyon salad days of yore. I wanted to start in a place that had very, very little in the way of social manipulation. That’s it. If I could have went back further reliably, I would have.

                                                              Robert Greenburg makes the case in several of his books that the act of signing a composer’s name to a piece of music is what made music evolve. The case is also made by others. I agree. As soon as anybody started creating anything and sticking their name on it, they started using that content to manipulate consumers. Doesn’t matter if it’s music, sculpture, or my stupid jokes on FB. We create things for various reasons we have and we look for feedback to hone how we create those things. Over long periods of time this becomes manipulative. If the selection criteria for artists creating any material is audience interest? We figure out how to get audiences interested and keep them.

                                                              Even if the net were full of orbital mechanics, you’d just end up with blogspam posts “Top Ten Reasons Uranus Looks Bad! You won’t believe #3!” We compete. Even science writers compete. You can change the venue of that competition, but it never goes away. Wikipedia might be a good example of how to create and maintain content without all of that manipulation. But I don’t want an internet that all looks like Wikipedia. Do you?

                                                              People have their own political drums they like banging on. Big government, BigCorps, Social Media, evil clowns. I’m happy with that. You guys carry on and have fun with it. Just don’t pick up the drum you like banging on and think it’s solve this problem. This is a systemic problem. Systemic problems don’t have good or bad guys, and they don’t tend to react well to intricate manipulation. Screwing around with systemic problems without understanding the feedback mechanism involved just makes things more complex while the actors all route around the complexity introduced. I’m happy with whatever political solution folks want – but this evolutionary process started centuries ago. Mark Zuckerberg or whoever really don’t have a lot to do with it. They’re just the lucky folks that stepped in at the right moment with the right product.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                There’s a thought experiment to be done here which clears things up. Imagine a world with no social media. No BigCorp tech fucking people over. Everything online is something that’s good-for-you and edifying. (Also pretend that the phrase “good for you” has some meaningful and not vague meaning)

                                                                I spend a lot of time trying to push myself, my personal world, my “filter bubble” if you will, in this direction. I use uMatrix, uBlock Origin, PawBlock, et cetera to close off large sections of the web for myself. You say none of the other problems go anywhere, but you’re wrong.

                                                                When you use Facebook only to communicate with people you don’t have other contact info for, and Reddit only to post and reply to support questions or disseminate and discuss blog posts and articles, the Web becomes a lot more like it was built to be: a document platform.

                                                                We compete. Even science writers compete. You can change the venue of that competition, but it never goes away.

                                                                I didn’t suggest that. Competition can be healthy when it’s not tied to survival or critical to self-esteem.

                                                                Wikipedia might be a good example of how to create and maintain content without all of that manipulation. But I don’t want an internet that all looks like Wikipedia. Do you?

                                                                That sounds dope. Wikipedia, arXiv, high-quality blogs, and PhpBB-style fora are the best part of the Web.

                                                                In a certain sense, this is a really good point, and you’re right: corporate social media is a useful proxy for capitalism that doesn’t scare people off when you talk about it. The real solution to the problems you very astutely identify as the underlying causes of this addictive nature (gamification, optimizing for stickiness, etc) is to build our software as far outside of the constraints of capitalism as we can.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              a heroin addict’s take, from his 1993 album that anticipated vr addiction: https://youtu.be/YwX-lMsmdNk

                                                              1. 2

                                                                easy to troll but hard to dismiss. pike argues it’s bikesheds all the way down.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    Nice! What hardware are you using to run plan9? Are you using virtualization for openbsd or vpn?

                                                                    1. 2

                                                                      It’s 9front running on a ThinkPad X250 (core i7):

                                                                      http://plan9.stanleylieber.com/hardware/thinkpad/x250/20cm-cto1ww/sysinfo

                                                                      OpenBSD 6.3 is running inside vmx(1):

                                                                      http://man.9front.org/1/vmx

                                                                  1. 21

                                                                    The only dependency is a recent 57+ version of Firefox.

                                                                    1. 3

                                                                      It seems pretty useless at first but you can run the program on a remote machine and ssh/mosh in to it for ultra light web browsing. Although you could probably get super light browsing by just disabling images in your browser.

                                                                      1. 2

                                                                        i.e., you need X and GTK installed (it’s not necessqry to run X though afaiu)

                                                                      1. -2

                                                                        From #cat-v’s /topic:

                                                                        no {bots,logging,politics,heh,keyboard shortcuts,transphobia}

                                                                        Please remove this. We don’t publish logs for a reason.

                                                                        1. 7

                                                                          It’s weird that someone who dislikes codes of conduct requests that Lobsters enforce its community’s official site violating its own code of conduct (the quoted real one, not the joke one). I’m going to pass.

                                                                          1. 8

                                                                            And, hat off, I didn’t read closely enough or research to see if this is seriously or sarcastically anti-semitic, but if it’s the latter I guess this is a pretty good example of how the failure mode of “isn’t it funny that we’re imitating white supremacists so well” is that y’all look like a bunch of white supremacists.

                                                                            1. 2

                                                                              Same, nor do I want to read that closely. There’s far too much very serious anti-semitism in the world these days.

                                                                              I would encourage everyone who hasn’t, to read the copy of the Daily Stormer style guide which was obtained by the Huffington Post. It explains exactly what function “it’s just a joke” serves, in the words of people who call themselves Nazis unironically. But have a loved one nearby when you read it, I don’t even have words to describe what a horrifying and unpleasant read it is.

                                                                              This chat log was seven years ago. At that time, it was indeed the case that most people thought of Nazis as a historical phenomenon rather than a contemporary one. Also, I agree that people can change and grow. I am personally willing to take sl at their word when they say “I’m not a Nazi, racist, sexist, homophobe, or antisemitic” (elsewhere in this comment tree), not because I don’t find the chat log vile, but because that declaration is one that people who do subscribe to those ideologies are usually unwilling to make, in my experience.

                                                                              I am hopeful that sl won’t prove me wrong in future.

                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                You could also take heart in the fact that I have never expressed affinity for such ideas, in the seven year old chat log or anywhere else. It’s never completely clear why anyone thinks I, or 9front, do hold an affinity for such ideas. It’s always precisely this kind of completely shallow, drive-by condemnation of things no one ever said or did, usually (as here) accompanied by a declaration that the accuser does not intend to bother to find out if what they are saying is true or not. It’s really that consistent and weird. It leaves me in a position where I have to decide whether or not to engage the accusation (which is almost always diminishing returns), or allow the person to wallow in their misunderstanding. One benefit of allowing people who aren’t thinking clearly to wallow in their misunderstandings is that they will often proceed to leave 9front alone. Really, it’s win/win, for our devs and for our users. But let me be clear: There is no political or ideological substance to the 9front project beyond simply using and maintaining Plan 9.

                                                                                One small addendum: What people say on IRC is up to each individual. #cat-v has never been ban-happy, but people saying stupid things are usually questioned thoroughly, often resulting in humiliation. That includes Nazis, racists, sexists, homophobes, and antisemites.

                                                                                1. 5

                                                                                  The reason I don’t intend to investigate is pretty simple: If the bad things are true, it’ll be clear in due time without me having to put in the emotional resources and time to investigate. If they’re false, I’m not taking action against you, so there’s no reason to put in those resources. The resources required would be substantial; I’ve had to do it in other communities I manage.

                                                                                  I appreciate and understand why good people do not enjoy having to say “I’m not a Nazi” frequently. Unfortunately, Nazis aren’t stupid - they’re as capable of anyone else of saying thoughtful words to explain why they don’t feel they should have to say “I’m not a Nazi”. Literally any words can be co-opted by people who don’t care what those words mean. There’s no magic incantation. But Nazis do pay some small social cost by saying “I’m not a Nazi”, so it’s at least something.

                                                                                  I appreciate your statement, it does help.

                                                                                  1. 5

                                                                                    Thanks for your candor. Your method seems sound, and I can identify with the reasoning behind it.

                                                                                    I do comprehend that mentioning [thing] will always draw complaints that one is promoting [thing]. A certain amount of responsibility comes with the territory, especially where 20th century Germany is concerned. The very first 9front propaganda image was this: http://9front.org/img/9frontfell01.png. It’s David Bowie, captured by a photographer in Victoria Station, circa 1976. If you know anything at all about this debacle, it might help to illuminate the spirit in which the original 9front propaganda was undertaken: You stand up to wave at your fans and some enterprising photographer catches you at just the right moment; immediately, the front falls off, and the Daiichi Fukushima disaster lands in your publicist’s lap (matters are complicated by your previous “clever” statements to the press about the intersection of politics and the occult). What happened was, most of the 9front developers are German, or otherwise (Eastern) European, and big fans of things like Monty Python, cat-v, Milton Friedman. Inevitably, people started making jokes. Perhaps just as inevitably, outsiders to the project started noticing these jokes and expressing offense. This only caused the jokes to escalate. It might seem unconscionable to software evangelists, but 9front developers don’t care about attracting users or presenting a professional face to potential investors or employers. Everyone is only there to run and maintain Plan 9 for their own use. And our typical experience with people who show up on IRC to express outrage is that: 1.) it’s no use arguing with them, 2.) they probably don’t have much to offer the project in the first place. I think I mentioned earlier that most of these people tell us up front they have no interest in finding out what is really going on. Like I said, it’s win/win.

                                                                                    I will say that some idiots on IRC cloud the issue. I argue with them regularly.

                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                      If they’re false, I’m not taking action against you

                                                                                      Honestly, I think that the “hat-off” comment of @pushcx was quite dangerous.

                                                                                      Implying that “y’all look like a bunch of white supremacists” is an action.

                                                                                      In itself, nothing I would care to flag if directed to me, but I think it’s worth to remember that Nazi were used to burn books.

                                                                                      If you do not “read closely enough”, you will end supporting their propaganda.

                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                        All I can ask is that you trust my experience as a community manager, and my status as a person belonging to groups that fall squarely within Nazis’ targeting criteria. Nobody has the resources for a lengthy discussion of how to handle this on lobste.rs, but I can promise that thought is going into it.

                                                                                2. 0

                                                                                  I am very confused about what point you are trying to make. I haven’t even posted in the thread that you linked to. Perhaps you were referring to a different thread? (apparently I did, but it was hidden because I was responding to a deleted comment.) While it is true that I dislike codes of conducts, what relevance does it have now?

                                                                                  And, btw, the 9front CoC changes with every refresh. Perhaps you saw one that you thought was relevant. I don’t know which one you were referring to.

                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                    I was comparing the one you quoted prohibiting positing logs with the joke one I linked.

                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                      i think the main part is that the log was hosted on 9front.org

                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                        9front.org is a separate entity from #cat-v.

                                                                                        1. 5

                                                                                          In that case, it is even weirder that I’m being asked to enforce the chat room’s code of conduct against the site and I’m glad I’m staying out of it.

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            maybe /u/4ad was asking OP to remove it, not a mod.

                                                                                            1. 4

                                                                                              In #lobsters 4ad explicitly asked for the story on Lobsters to be deleted.

                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                ah. well there you go.

                                                                                            2. -1

                                                                                              An IRC channel topic is not a “code of conduct”, and you know it.

                                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                                Yeah, it’s an encoding of rules for conduct and not a code of conduct.

                                                                                                Please just leave me out of whatever this weird drama is. I’m not replacing the dead link with a live one because I already feel like we ducked a flamewar and I don’t want to tempt fate, let’s just stop commenting so it falls off the homepage and /comments.

                                                                                    2. 6

                                                                                      Ehm… this is published on 9front.org

                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                        This was published years ago as part of an attempt to contextualize a factually inaccurate article written about 9front by a rogue journalist who has since left the field. The parent directory contains more information, including his note of apology. I have restricted access to the raw IRC log (the original interview from which the article was sourced took place entirely on IRC), pending an unlikely change in #cat-v policy.

                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                          i don’t see anything in http://9front.org/press/sdtimes/ - did you intend to restrict access to the entire directory?

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            Curiouser and curiouser. The directory listing is apparently, though inadvertently, excluded by the CMS (werc), which the old content was moved into… several years ago. This makes me wonder how he found the file in the first place; though it’s easy enough to imagine it turning up in search requests or other pages on the site that used to link to it in the past.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              I’ve fixed things so that now there is a short explanation and links to the remaining files.

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        I have to ask:

                                                                                        Which of the three 9front priorities quoted above are the most objectionable to partisans in this thread?

                                                                                        1. 0

                                                                                          Well… I think you should trigger ragnarok first! :-D

                                                                                        1. 0

                                                                                          God these people are unbearable. It’s like reading the exchanges of children in a playground.

                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                            You should be very proud of your children, if they are so much smarter than you! ;-)

                                                                                            1. -7

                                                                                              Grow up.

                                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                                Some of those people were teenagers at the time.

                                                                                                1. -4

                                                                                                  Tell us the stories about how you sieg heil’d around school, I mean, as a joke you know? People get so offended nowadays when you ironically quote goebbels it’s hilarious. Freaking political correctness!

                                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                                    What?

                                                                                                    1. -3

                                                                                                      It’s a joke, dude

                                                                                                      1. 5

                                                                                                        I think there may be a misunderstanding here.

                                                                                                        I created almost all of the 9front propaganda. I’m not a Nazi, racist, sexist, homophobe, or antisemitic. Most of it is intended to deflate the pomposity of authority, particularly with regards to the software industry. Much of it is self-deprecating (example: http://9front.org/img/9frontsystem03.png). None of it is intended to promote fascist, racist, sexist, or any other form of discriminatory ideology, except where it comes to discriminating between quality and trash software.

                                                                                                        Anecdote: One time a guy quoted Monty Python in the body of a message critical of 9front’s use of images of politicians, explaining that it’s never okay to make fun of Nazis because someone may think that you’re promoting them. While his advice seems in retrospect to be prophetic, it still confused me because Monty Python made a career of mocking Nazis.

                                                                                                        I realize nobody cares about facts.

                                                                                                        1. -3

                                                                                                          I already understood this. Like, I get the shtick. Completely eschewing honest appearances in lieu of masturbatory trolling as a jab at The Man. It’s adolescent, obnoxious, and serves nothing but your ego. The whole act is pretentious

                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                            I have absolutely no idea what this is about.

                                                                                            1. 6

                                                                                              A tech reporter caught wind of 9front and asked to interview the developers for an article. The interview eventually took place on IRC. The reporter wrote an article that misquoted and misrepresented what the developers said on IRC. He later apologized. Related materials were archived in the linked directory to provide context for the resulting confusion.

                                                                                              This all took place in 2011.

                                                                                              I don’t know why Shamar linked to the IRC log.

                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                Hi sl, I was looking for early documents about the announcement of the 9front fork.

                                                                                                I did such search to provide an example of the playful mood that you had back then, and the log seemed exactly interesting and entertaining as #cat-v usually is. Given it was on 9front.org I assumed it was a public document. And actually the content was pretty coherent with the usual ironic propaganda of 9front.

                                                                                                I found the log on Google (I cannot recall the exact search query) and I even looked at the parent directory but since it was empty, I didn’t learn about all the mess that happened in 2011.

                                                                                                To me it seemed just an interesting and funny text about 9front origins, and I didn’t knew people on cat-v didn’t wanted it to be linked from here (given the log was public).

                                                                                                My apologies.

                                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                                  Thanks for the explanation. It was indeed posted as a public document; as I said above, the purpose was to provide context (evidence?) that the article was misleading at best. The parent directory appearing to be empty was a SNAFU I committed a few years ago when the site moved from static HTML to werc. I’ve fixed the directory listing and added a small explanation.

                                                                                                  Everyone involved agreed to post the IRC log at the time it was originally uploaded, but presently nobody in #cat-v wants logs posted on the Internet so I have disabled access to those files.

                                                                                            1. 8

                                                                                              Good. If you’re a vocal asshole outside of the project, I don’t trust you to be able to magically turn it off and hide your prejudices inside the project either.

                                                                                              And people act like this is some bizarre new thing. If I engaged in harassment or inappropriate behavior on Saturday, so much so that people knew about it…I’d likely be fired from my day job too. Nobody wants that kind of association with their project/business. Plenty of employment contracts and employee handbooks have “good conduct” clauses, and have for decades.

                                                                                              Those of you concerned about this, serious question: what is an example of some behavior that you honestly think would be problematic under this new policy?

                                                                                              1. 17

                                                                                                Those of you concerned about this, serious question: what is an example of some behavior that you honestly think would be problematic under this new policy?

                                                                                                Mainly people digging Twitter to oust someone. One case immediately comes to mind, Rod Vagg and Node.js:

                                                                                                Most recently Rod tweeted in support of an inflammatory anti-Code-of-Conduct article. As a perceived leader in the project, it can be difficult for outsiders to separate Rod’s opinions from that of the project.

                                                                                                The article mentioned is The Neurodiversity Case for Free Speech, which I agree with. I really don’t want to be excluded from Go project by tweeting this reasonable article I agree with. This actually happened, and I fear it will happen after this revision of Go CoC.

                                                                                                1. 6

                                                                                                  I don’t know enough about his situation to judge, but a quick reading shows that there were sufficient complaints from contributors and other Steering Committee members to bring his resignation to a vote, and 40% of the vote was for him to resign. Generally speaking I’m opposed to the concept of “where there’s smoke there’s fire” but if a lot of people are saying they don’t want to work with you…maybe the problem is you and not them.

                                                                                                  (And they have in that article lists of explicit violations of the project’s policies, like discussing private moderation publicly, etc. That he wasn’t allowed a forum to answer to these charges is a flaw in the process to be sure, but he doesn’t deny they happened.)

                                                                                                  And the problem, from what I gather, wasn’t that he tweeted about an article, but that he tweeted screenshots of rude responses about it. He’s a leader of the project, and as such needs to think about his position.

                                                                                                  If thw CEO of Pepsi tweeted something on his “private” Twitter that the Pepsi Corporation felt brought them into disrepute…you don’t think PepsiCo would do something? Because they absolutely would. Like it or not, he was in a leadership position and discussed things relevant to the project’s governance in a (supposedly) flippant way.

                                                                                                  …but like I said above, I’m not familiar with this issue, and am just providing my opinion based on the linked article (and the things it linked to).

                                                                                                  EDIT: And I went back and read “The Neurodiversity Case for Free Speech”, which in my opinion is framing the argument very poorly. They seem to imply that there are people with atypical neurologies who are incapable of refraining from sexist, homophobic, and anti-Islamic speech. It’s basically saying “I can be an asshole and if it makes you uncomfortable…I have a condition!” It’s removing all agency from atypical neurologies or implying that prejudice and bigotry is an inherent part of atypical neurologirs, neither of which is true.

                                                                                                  It also echos the old Kuro5hin “we’re just smarter than you and if you can’t handle it, too bad” argument, which was tiresome then too.

                                                                                                  It goes on to say that Isaac Newton would run afoul of these sorts of things today. Well, sure. He owned shares in a slavetrading enterprise. He’s not gonna be in trouble for thinking he can transmute lead into gold, he’s going to get in trouble for talking about owning other humans. It’s a sttawman.

                                                                                                  There’s a difference between the kind of behavior exhibited by, say persons with Aspberger’s Syndrome and people who are just assholes. If someone with Aspberger’s truly believes he should tell women he wants to touch their boobs and “just can’t help it”…that’s unfortunate, but it’s not appropriate behavior regardless. Nobody’s banning an Aspie because they forgot to say “please” or said that some piece of code is “garbage”. Aspies can be not-homophobes too, just like neurotypical people.

                                                                                                  The article is seeming to say that people shouldn’t be held to any expected form of social behavior when working on a social project. It also falls into the “you have to know 100% every time without asking if someone else would be offended by what you say” which is logically falicious and not in line with what these Codes of Conduct actually say.

                                                                                                  In other words, this “reasonable” article seems, to me, to be attempting to throw around some absurd examples and mischaracterized strawmen, and then claim that anyone should be free to act however they please socially with no repercussions.

                                                                                                  That’s not how it works, or has ever worked, in any field of human endeavor.

                                                                                                  1. 19

                                                                                                    No one should be obliged to refrain from anti-Islamic speech in order to participate in an open-source software project, especially if they do so outside of the confines of the project (I’ll grant that it’s reasonable for a project to make any discussion of religion off-topic within the confines of the project). When I said that these changes to the code of conduct were a way of controlling participants’ political speech, this is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. Islam is a system of religious thought like any other and deserves no special protection from criticism, other than that which is granted equally to all religions in a religiously-pluralistic society. If the Go project can define anti-Islamic speech outside of the project as a banning offense, then they are acting as enforcers of a specific political ideology that privileges Islam as a sacred idea. This has no place in an open-source software project.

                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                      Well said.

                                                                                                      I am more concerned about how, say, virulent your speech is. If you’re so anti-Islam or anti-Christian or anti-Atheist that it becomes obvious that you might have problems working with people of those philosophies then I would be concerned as to how well you’d function in a project that explicitly welcomes people of all (or no) faith.

                                                                                                      I am more concerned about consistent “women are just inherently worse at programming, it’s science!”-style posts. If that’s what fills your Twitter, I wonder how you’ll be when you review a woman’s PR, y’know?

                                                                                                      But you raise an excellent point.

                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                        If (this is hypothetical) women are, in fact, inherently worse at programming, and one thinks programming is important and should be for everybody, this means women need additional support for programming. In fact, this is the exact position I hold: I think men are inherently worse at language (reading) as evidenced by standardized test score statistics, and reading is important, and boys need special support so that they can get equal score at reading.

                                                                                                        I don’t hold such position wrt women and programming, but if I were, I would review a woman’s PR with more care and time so that it is more helpful.

                                                                                                    2. 7

                                                                                                      You asked for an honest concern for the new Go CoC. If my concern, to be specific, tweeting a link to The Neurodiversity Case for Free Speech and being allowed continued participation to Go project, sounds honest and reasonable, please confirm.

                                                                                                      Thanks!

                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                        I edited my comment above. From what I gather, the problem was twofold: he didn’t just tweet the article, but supposedly offensive screenshots of comments about the article; and he did it while in a leadership position of the project.

                                                                                                        And there were apparently many other complaints and violations of the project’s policies, so it wouldn’t appear to be as simple as “tweet a link, get banned.”

                                                                                                        But again, I first heard of this like 15 minutes ago.

                                                                                                        1. 10

                                                                                                          so it wouldn’t appear to be as simple as “tweet a link, get banned.”

                                                                                                          With Go, it would appear to be simpler than that. Post something totally innocuous that they don’t agree with, and get banned.

                                                                                                          They banned some guy on reddit because he was just expressing his opinion.

                                                                                                          (In case my own post gets deleted, here is a screenshot.)

                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                            Reddit isn’t Go, though. We have to wait and see.

                                                                                                            (And he wasn’t “expressing his opinion”, he was accusing them of witch hunts before the thing was even promulgated. He wasn’t banned for his opinion, he was banned for being an asshole. Go into any volunteer organization and combatively accuse them of witch hunts and bigotry and see how long they welcome your effort…

                                                                                                            If he had said “I worry that the vague language and lack of public investigation to lead to abuse of those with minority political opinions,” he’d be fine. Instead he came in accusatorily with guns ablazin and then gets taken aback when people don’t like being talked to that way.)

                                                                                                            1. 9

                                                                                                              Note that /r/golang does use Go CoC, so it is fully relevant here.

                                                                                                              1. 9

                                                                                                                he was accusing them of witch hunts

                                                                                                                No, he wasn’t. He was responding to this post, essentially answering the question “what is wrong with CoCs in general?”. /u/zevdg had his own opinion, and /u/gildedlink had answered punctually to his objection.

                                                                                                                It looks like he was perfectly correct though.

                                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                                  He accused the CoC of being used by “bigoted people…to exclude others based on superficial ideological labels…[and] to bully targets.”

                                                                                                                  I shortened it to “witch hunt” but the idea’s the same.

                                                                                                                  Again, if he had said “I fear the language is too vague and might be liable to abuse by people who wish to exclude minority viewpoints” he would’ve been fine. I you act like a jerk when expressing your opinion, people’s reactions might be based on your jerkiness and not the expressed opinions.

                                                                                                                  EDIT: removed some of my own jerkiness. There was no reason for it, sorry.

                                                                                                                  1. 9

                                                                                                                    Your restatement is bad because I (and I think gildedlink) am against outside clause in its entirety, and my primary objection is not vague language. In fact, you seem okay with my “Mainly people digging Twitter to oust someone… Rod Vagg and Node.js”, but I don’t see much difference.

                                                                                                                    Or do you think I should be banned from Go project for saying the above?

                                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                                      He said “frameworks like this”, he was talking about other CoCs just like this one and how they were used by other people. He wasn’t accusing these people (the Go people) of anything (although, now, I am, in case anyone is keeping score).

                                                                                                                      Again, if he had said “I fear the language is too vague […]”

                                                                                                                      He was saying what a CoC can do (and what it did do in other communities). He didn’t get a change to expands on his thoughts, or explain in depth how this particular CoC enables that phenomenon because he was banned.

                                                                                                                      As a related point, I am sure you realize that some of use are against the very idea of a CoC. While I have specific problems with this particular CoC (which have all been discussed here before by other people, so I won’t repeat them), my main ideological problem is with the existence of a CoC itself in any shape of form.

                                                                                                                  2. 2

                                                                                                                    For the record, I appear to have been shadow banned from /r/golang as well. Not just regular ban, but shadow ban.

                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                      Any idea why?

                                                                                                                      1. 4

                                                                                                                        Actually after some more investigation, I wasn’t banned, but they enabled global censoring. Every post now has to be approved by a moderator before it becomes visible to other people. In my opinion, this is a far worse outcome then if they had just banned me…

                                                                                                            2. 6

                                                                                                              Replying to edit:

                                                                                                              They seem to imply that there are people with atypical neurologies who are incapable of refraining from sexist, homophobic, and anti-Islamic speech.

                                                                                                              There is no such implication. It’s not about being incapable, it’s about being more difficult. Large text accessibility theme is not about being incapable of using small text.

                                                                                                              That’s not how it works, or has ever worked, in any field of human endeavor.

                                                                                                              Since humanity never made it fair for Aspies in its long history, humanity shall continue to make it unfair for Aspies forevermore. Got it. If your criteria for social change is “that’s not how it has ever worked”, there would be no women’s suffrage.

                                                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                                                How does being an Aspie make it more difficult to not be a homophobe? Homophobia is not a symptom of Aspberger’s Syndrome.

                                                                                                                1. 5

                                                                                                                  It makes it more difficult to know what the implicit prevailing social norm is.

                                                                                                                  But really, that’s not what I think is the core of disagreement. You find The Neurodiversity Case for Free Speech objectionable. Got it. Do you find it objectionable enough that tweeting a link to it should constitute a cause for ban for open source projects?

                                                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                                                    Not at all. But if that’s provided as supporting evidence that I lack impartiality to do my job according to the project’s rules and had been the subject of multiple complaints on top of documented violations of procedures and policies….well…

                                                                                                                    Now, do you think that treating gay people with common respect is purely a social norm that we should ignore if we feel like it?

                                                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                                                      Yeah it’s also important to remember that a condition may be an explanation but it isn’t an excuse. I have ADHD and I do lack impulse control. That lack of impulse control is not an excuse to act out on others. I still need to apologize for my behavior and describe what steps I might take to avoid it in the future. It does not count as be an asshole free card. I still need to put a good faith effort into having good behavior and if I repeatedly am hostile to others then I may not be able to be involved in a group project.

                                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                                        This is why I am in favor of Rust CoC. “Moderators will first respond to such remarks with a warning.” Rust CoC is explicitly against instaban.

                                                                                                                        Go CoC is not, and above /r/golang case seems Go CoC in fact can instaban. (It is possible that there was private warning, but short time frame makes it unlikely.)

                                                                                                                      2. 1

                                                                                                                        No, I don’t think so.

                                                                                                                      3. 1

                                                                                                                        It doesn’t, however, make it difficult to know what one’s values are, or to act accordingly. I don’t know what social norms have to do with it, and I find this argument insulting.

                                                                                                                  2. 3

                                                                                                                    And the problem, from what I gather, wasn’t that he tweeted about an article, but that he tweeted screenshots of rude responses about it. He’s a leader of the project, and as such needs to think about his position.

                                                                                                                    I have an honest question which I hope you to reciprocate by answering. Do you seriously believe it would have been different if just link was tweeted and “Dude, What’s wrong with your head?” screenshot was not tweeted? I really have hard time believing this. “Yes” or “No” would be sufficient. Thanks!

                                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                                      Well, before we go too far down this rabbit hole, we should remember that Node.js and Go are two separate projects and we should judge Go’s policy separately.

                                                                                                                      As for your question:

                                                                                                                      I don’t know. Maybe yes, maybe no. I think if the person in question has other complaints lodged against them, the scales might tip.

                                                                                                                      I personally wouldn’t care, but I’m not the Node.js TSC with their insider knowledge of his past behavior.

                                                                                                              1. 0

                                                                                                                empathy