1. 19

    Gemini’s obscurity and lack of utility means that there are no analytics, no metrics, no ways to go viral, to monetize people’s attention, build a career or even a minimally-functional web platform.

    It’s just not worth it. If I want “no analytics, no metrics”, etc, then I’d install adblock, avoid Twitter and Facebook, and disregard SEO-optimized blogspam, which I do. I don’t want to be forced to use an extraordinarily dumbed-down markup language for that. [0] I still don’t understand why the author thinks that leaving out tables, text styling, images, and forms was necessary in order to avoid Gemini becoming another corporate-monetized cesspool.

    [0]: And yes, I could use Markdown with Gemini… but then that kind of misses the point of using Gemini in the first place.

    1. 7

      Yeah, I guess I don’t understand how resistance-in-place is referenced in the article. If I limited myself to Gemini, I would be able to consume only a small subset of content. That’s fine. But why is a whole new protocol (and the corresponding new software) required?

      Why not only consume parts of the web that aren’t gross? In fact, someone could create a standard subset of HTML and an index that only lists pages that follow it. The most serious adherents could even use simpler web browsers to access it (but it would still work fine for everyone else).

      Resistance-in-place is about keeping oneself from being appropriated. We don’t need a protocol that itself cannot be appropriated, or one that forcibly prevents use that would be appropriative. We just need individuals who wish not to be appropriated (as best they can). But the web is flexible (in fact, that might be its biggest problem), it can already be used in ways that defy appropriation.

      Edit: clarity

      1. 7

        But why is a whole new protocol (and the corresponding new software) required?

        It’s not! There’s all sorts of opportunities for ‘resistance-in-place’ on the web (most of which I don’t do) – opting out of social media, opting out of Google, creating a plain-HTML website with no analytics, etc. Gemini is just a more radical opting out than that, but I think that people who keep RSS and HTML blogging alive online or self-host git or still use mailing lists, etc to be doing the same sort of thing.

        Section 2.5 of the FAQ covers the “subset of HTML” idea https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi

        1. 1

          Why not only consume parts of the web that aren’t gross?

          I’d love to hear everyday thoughts from ordinary people around the world (that I have no connection to). That’s a great way to understand different cultures a bit more. How do I do that on the web?

          On the web, one issue is that everything is optimized for engagement and whatnot. It’s very difficult to find unpopular content. Another issue is that the content on the web is basically eternal, so most people are smart enough not to share their thoughts.

          Gemini is no silver bullet, but its uselessness seems to have its uses at the moment.

        2. 6

          I still don’t understand why the author thinks that leaving out tables, text styling, images, and forms was necessary in order to avoid Gemini becoming another corporate-monetized cesspool.

          (author here) Everyone wants something added to Gemini but disagrees what that something is. Personally, I think it should be in-line images and footnotes, but if Gemini became more complex, it would lose many of the traits that make it interesting. Gemini is a technology that invites us not to try and improve or optimize it, but to accept it as it is and work around its limitations – it is intentionally austere, and this is a feature, not a bug.

        1. 1

          Microsoft Lost the Backwards Compatibility Religion.
          it’s not enough to reinvent the entire Windows API: they have to reinvent it twice.
          And yet, people aren’t really using .NET much. ​
          It turns out we were wrong. Object oriented programming is handy dandy, but it’s not really the productivity booster that was promised. The real significant productivity advance we’ve had in programming has been from languages which manage memory for you automatically.
          Inside Microsoft, the MSDN Magazine Camp has won the battle.
          Much as I hate to say it, a huge chunk of developers have long since moved to the web and refuse to move back.

          This explains everything wrong with the javascript eco-system. We are in the visual basic / .net shift. It started with react I suppose. At this point I wonder if React was started by ex-microsoft employees at facebook. Now i am beginning to think the github acquisition was also about acquiring electron, as even skype was rewritten in electron. This is not open source, its weaponised corporate source and possibly EEE.

          Javascript is even more productive because it had no types, C-like syntax and garbage collection; while avoiding inheritance bullshit completely. It provided mixins. jQuery provided so much backwards compatibility and a market place for plugins, only now I am beginning to appreciate it. Things were easy to prototype. iterate and perfect over a period of time. Now javascript is replaced with ex-dotnet, ex-silverlight, ex-applet, ex-gwt, ex-java “professional” object oriented programmers who do nothing but reinvent APIs. There’s a reason why those technologies failed - things take 10 times as long to develop and prototype and people hate broken crap. After these losers failed in the marketplace, they have now managed to sneak objects in via bribing the standards committee so that they can bring their control freak misery everywhere. What a farce. There will be another bubble because these typescript hacks will not deliver things on time and investors will move on … but they will have wonderful and clean interfaces that do nothing. Time to move to lua and web assembly. Heck maybe it’s time for a new browser.

          1. 7

            Javascript is even more productive because it had no types, C-like syntax and garbage collection

            • Is no types really a reason for it being productive? I’m not very experienced in JS at all but the existence and widespread use of TypeScript tells me the opposite might be true. Again, I’m not experienced in JS at all (though I have done Python, another dynamically-typed language) so I may be a bit off here.
            • Javascript does have garbage collection.

            ex-dotnet, ex-silverlight, ex-applet, ex-gwt, ex-java “professional” object oriented programmers

            After these losers

            sneak objects in via bribing the standards committee so that they can bring their control freak misery everywhere.

            You didn’t need to express your unreasonable loathing of OO developers in this incendiary way. I’m not a exactly super fond of OO either, but this is just a personal attack.

            1. 6

              Personal attack is generous. I mean come on:

              they have now managed to sneak objects in via bribing the standards committee so that they can bring their control freak misery everywhere

              This is half completely unhinged conspiracy theory, half rage comic masquerading as prose.

              these typescript hacks

              Ironically the TypeScript type system has more in common with Haskell types than mid-2000s OOP type systems.

          1. 4

            I don’t think this is very on-topic. A blog post containing in-depth content on exactly what makes this change worthwhile would be much more appropriate for Lobsters.

            I’m pretty happy about this pull request I made on rails

            Erm, congrats?

            1. 1

              agreed, it’s going to be in “this week in rails”, that will be more appropriate to post

            1. 22

              I used to be a Gemini enthusiast before it hit me: if this is really a content-focused markup language, where the client gets to decide how to present the content, then why must I used ASCII art (or worse, a separate CSV file) to display an inline table? ASCII tables are terrible for screens that are either short or wide, don’t have line wrapping, don’t have column alignment, and have absolutely abysmal accessibility.

              Not to mention that typography styles that have existed for positively centuries (italics, bolding) aren’t included in the .gmi format.

              Is this really the price we have to pay to get a simpler document-focused version of the web? Did the Gemini creators really have to keep features off just to ensure that the goal of having a “basic but usable” client in less than 50 lines of code? 50 lines of code? Really?

              tl;dr Gemini took its goal of “simplicity” (for some definition of “simplicity”) way, way too far.

              1. 7

                There are quite a few things that interest me and that I write about, let’s take three: programming, math, music. Only the first one is possible on Gemini: I can post raw, un-highlighted code snippets. I cannot post formulas or sound and score snippets. So, I’m not using Gemini. ;)

                What if we can re-introduce the plugin system in a safe way? Can a hypothetical FireChrome browser VM automatically download a MusicXML snippet rendering plugin from my site when a user visits it and ask the user if they want to run it (license: GPL, signed by dmbaturin’s key, wants access to: current page). That’s something I’d be happy to use, something that gives me and visitors more opportunities, not less.

                1. 1

                  downloading, safely, – rendering plugins associated with the content, is certainly a possible approach. But perhaps, somewhat, challenging to build given the variety of the devices.

                  What if those rendering plugins that you mentioned above, in a way, will become part of the protocol that help to ‘convert’ the source content into something that best suited for the target device?

                  Given, that any viewing device that hosts a browser, already runs a sophisticated OS with windowing systems, layout managers, etc – why not leverage that, instead of building those into a browser.

                  So that the transplier in the protocol (at the source) – knows how to convert the ‘markup’, ‘layout’ and ‘accessibility’ definitions of the source onto the destination rendering subsystem (that, underneath leverages the target OS’s UI subsystem).

                  The transplier underneath, would leverage a number of plugins, that understand the source and know how to transfer it to the representation, consumable by the target device.

                  I realize that a web browser does that in a way. But, may be, separating the markup/layout/accessibility converters out of the browser and into a ‘protocol’, would simplify creating web browsers (since the approach would leverage OS native UI framework), while maintaining functional capabilities of richer rendering models.

                  With the same approach, for the ‘active’ part of the content (that is JS) – may be it should be transplied into the ‘actionable’ language of the target OS (rather than into a ‘webassembly’ – unless the target OS asks for ‘webassembly’)

                  The audio streaming works this way – the source content gets translated into a representation that’s best suited for a given client device , before sending it it over.

                  1. 2

                    I remembered that about half a year ago I made a rough draft of a spec for a “post-web” system that adopts good ideas from Gopher and forgotten web technologies and extends them. In particular, it has machine-readable resource maps and the markup language is extensible with plugins that resemble “user scripts on steroids”—element tree transformers.

                    If anyone is interested to read it: https://gist.github.com/dmbaturin/211e1a8a7e69ea1899f98f3b2010c7c3

                    1. 1

                      Is this inspired by “indieweb” inclusion of specific (X)HTML snippets to denote stuff like addresses, friend relationships etc? Edit they’re called microformats.

                      I first came in contact with this (well, RDF) in the early 2000s (c.f. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOAF_(ontology)) and I’ve seen it flare up now and again since then.

                      1. 1

                        That, but also the idea that XHTML would provide extensible DTDs, that was never used in practice.

                      2. 1

                        I like the “foreign transports” section, clever. I’d like to see this developed more.

                        1. 1

                          I can make an actual repository for that, if you want to make pull requests or have an extended discussion.

                          1. 1

                            Please do!

                1. 5

                  I think it would be nice to establish a policy that all tag-related meta posts with at least X votes would get a moderator comment saying why the request was or was not accepted.

                  1. 7

                    To be honest, it’s going to be “because I had real big shit IRL to do”.

                  1. 2

                    Some nitpicks with the following paragraph:

                    When you study computer science, you’ll probably start with low level computing, like assembly or machine code. Soon you will learn a higher-level language, like C, or move on to object-oriented programming in Java, and if you’re lucky you will learn about more modern languages like Python, JavaScript or Go. You won’t stop there of course, learning about the recent frameworks, from Django to React or Vue. Maybe you even jumped in at some random point and moved onwards from there.

                    • Machine code? in first-year CS? I’d be impressed to hear of a single place that offers a course like this.
                    • Higher-level language, like… C?
                    • Python (1991) is older than Java (1995).
                    • JavaScript (December 1995) isn’t much newer than Java (May 1995).
                    1. 7

                      Doing a lot of thinking. I’m on the fence about leaving programming in public entirely. There’s so much agony involved. I get obsessed and fixated on things. I have very extreme opinions. It’s been proven to me time and time again that I am incompatible with everyone else. Actually no, not just programming. I’ll probably never make anything and release it publically anymore.

                      1. 8

                        And then you’ll look back at it all 10+ years later and ask yourself “did I really let a bunch of NPCs stop me from pursuing greatness”.

                        A lot of famous authors and thinkers have faced similar problems. Take a trick from their book - pick a pseudonym and keep going.

                        1. 5

                          As somebody who has and values different opinions from mainstream dogma, I suggest not doing doing anything brash like _why and maybe just pausing for a while. In case you decide “fuck it, I’m gonna go back and keep yelling about this” in 3 months. Our status quo fucking sucks and we need weirdos sprouting weird ideas until we get something better. Or at least noticeably less-bad.

                          1. 1

                            I suggest not doing doing anything brash like _why

                            Brash things like deleting everything: unfortunate.

                            Brash things like making excellent tutorials with cartoon foxes shooting “CHUNKY BACON!!!”: excellent.

                            I’m still distantly sad that _why’s wallet name got spread around without his consent. He wasn’t doing anything bad, AFAIK, so there was no reason for everyone to just pretend they didn’t know it. I hope online communities have learned to err a bit on the side of not doing that.

                            1. 2

                              For those who are younger or don’t remember, “why the lucky stiff” was the pseudonymous author of a popular guide to the Ruby language. He removed the site in 2009 for unknown reasons.

                              1. 2

                                Thanks. One nitpick: I think his reasons were fairly clear.

                                He did not use his legal identity in any context when publishing online, including the books, the articles and the libraries he wrote. He was somewhat private about his legal identity. It’s obviously not really possible to do things like register domains (*) and attend conferences without exposing your legal name to various parties, so it was an open secret. His identity was widely publicised just before he deleted everything and went dark. It is widely believed that that was the specific cause.

                                (* individual privacy when you register a domain used to be much worse than it is now. WHOIS servers would by default just give out registrants’ names. GDPR made this better.)

                                1. 2

                                  Without explicit confirmation, it’s still speculation although your reasoning makes a lot of sense. That’s why I hedged.

                                  (I don’t think _why owes anyone an explanation, by the way).

                                  1. 1

                                    Yeah, agreed. ❤️

                              2. 2

                                I meant “rash” but I fat-fingered it :)

                                1. 2

                                  Typo escaped notice by being plausible in context 😆

                            2. 3

                              I’m on the fence about leaving programming in public entirely. There’s so much agony involved. I get obsessed and fixated on things.

                              From the tone of your comment it looks like you do need a bit of a break from programming. Close the editor, take a trip somewhere, relax. Try doing some artwork, making some music, doing dorodango. :)

                              I have very extreme opinions.

                              I’m not sure why having extreme opinions on programming is a bad thing!

                            1. 2

                              As someone who’s annoyed that it takes nearly twenty seconds to compile a 5k-loc project on my machine, I’m quite pleased to hear that a lot of ground is being broken on compiler performance improvements.

                              1. 1

                                This is probably a dumb question, but what’s wrong with passing an anonymous word to the activate-toaster word?

                                [ my-custom-code-here ] activate-toaster
                                
                                1. 2

                                  That’s what I’d do, too. and then I would just : warm-toaster [ warm ] activate-toaster ; and do forth like Chuck would. At uni I wrote a lot of Forth esp on FlashForth and such and never ever found myself ever using defer, hooks and such, because they are anti-patterns imo.

                                  1. 1

                                    Hooks are best used when you have something you need to be able to temporarily replace. For instance, output. The c:put is a hookable word. By setting a new target, you can capture all displayed data until the word is unhooked to a buffer or file.

                                  2. 2

                                    I may well be misunderstanding the context here, but my understanding is that, while your solution would 100% work, it solves a different problem than what a hook seeks to solve – I imagine the scenario where, for example, a toaster manufacturer includes hooks in the toaster’s code that an enthusiast home-toaster-programmer could extend without having to gain direct access to the toaster’s core code. Your solution (I think) assumes direct access to the point of invocation of a word, whereas, with a hook, you could extend an existing interface without having to touch it directly.

                                    1. 1

                                      Think along the lines of git hooks.

                                    1. 4

                                      The question is, do we really want those comments to continue to be publicly visible in those threads? Would the site still allow replies? Or would the site put the comment in “stasis” where it wouldn’t be seen unless a particular link was used, and it could not be replied to, upvoted, or flagged? I strongly doubt any good could come out of users replying to the comment by @derek-jones if it wasn’t removed after he was banned. I feel like the best solution is, as @moderan noted, to attach the content of the post or comment to the ban entry, or to the user profile as a This post was the final straw line.

                                      1. 16

                                        Adding in a (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) communicates quite clearly to anyone scrolling through that said behavior is not tolerated. I can, however, see why it’d also be a good idea to just delete the post: maybe the post text could be attached to the ban reason?

                                        1. 3

                                          So, some troll comes in and adds a comment which is basically the N-word repeated 53 times in all caps. The comment is deleted, but if we follow your suggestion, that crap is supposed to be immortalized in the modlog?

                                          1. 2

                                            maybe the moderator could use their discretion and say “user posted a slur 53 times”? regardless, I don’t think my idea is super great: bans are usually for sustained behavior, not for a one off message. singling out a single message as the straw the broke the camel’s back isn’t really helpful.

                                            1. 2

                                              Removing a comment effectively says “this content has no place here”, enshrining it in the modlog defeats that.

                                              In this case, using the exact same message for the user ban and the comment removal was unfortunate, in my opinion.

                                              If people feel an obsessive need to track shitty comments, each story page has a .json variant with all the comments in a nice machine-readable format. Just scan the front page, download and stuff each comment in a db, then check for diffs or deletions.

                                              1. 4

                                                Removing a comment effectively says “this content has no place here”, enshrining it in the modlog defeats that.

                                                A modlog entry stating that a comment was deleted, along with the associated content, makes it crystal clear that the content isn’t welcome. The modlog entry can literally say “this is not welcome” - and even if it doesn’t, it’s really obvious that comments are deleted by mods because they’re not appropriate for the site. There’s no “defeat” - nobody using their brain is going to look at a modlog entry where it states that a comment was deleted and think that that entry condones that content - it’s literally the other way around.

                                        2. 13

                                          Yes we want those comments to be publicly visible but I would suggest that they only stay around in the moderation log. Not on the thread itself.

                                          1. 11

                                            Yes, this is the way to do it. If you just label it as “USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST” you’re going to attract more people to read it (rubbernecking). And leaving the content out in public will encourage certain people to go out with a bang, i.e. “I know this post will get me banned but…”

                                            Retaining the message in the moderation log maintains transparency without allowing trolls to pollute the space.

                                          2. 1

                                            Perhaps the message can be detached, and a message copied in its place. And then the detached message can be linked in full in the moderation log?

                                            That would preserve the justification why, and remove any offending terrible stuff out of public view. Nobody wants that kind of “content” in clear view on public sites.

                                            Would that work @pushcx ?

                                          1. 4

                                            I find it saddening that we had to have such a prolific and valued user as burntsushi to leave before we could agree that that banner was too abrasive.

                                            1. 2

                                              I do not believe that we had to have @burntsushi leave in order to agree on this.

                                            1. 7

                                              The fundamental rule for URLs is that they should not change. So if the https://lobste.rs/t/formalmethods will remain (as redirection), it is OK.

                                              1. 4

                                                I agree! However, https://lobste.rs/t/cryptocurrencies returns 404 after cryptocurrency was renamed to merkle-trees :(

                                                1. 4

                                                  @pushcx Is it possible to create a redirect for renamed tags?

                                                  1. 1

                                                    Could always hard-patch in a route in the top or /t/ routers.

                                              1. 1

                                                I really liked variable-length arrays in C. They were almost like automatic memory management in C.

                                                1. 4

                                                  The problem with VLAs on the stack in C is that you need to be very careful that the attacker can’t influence the size. If they can, then they can induce stack overflow. This means, to use them safely, you have to impose a sensible maximum size and fall back to heap allocation in other cases, which means you still need to write the code for the cleanup and you still have a fixed maximum size. At that point, you may as well just have a fixed-size stack allocation, which will generate better code in the compiler anyway. LLVM’s SmallVector class handles all of this in C++ for you: allocates a fixed-size buffer on the stack and transparently falls back to heap allocation if you need something larger. I’ve written C macros that do this using __attribute__((cleanup)), but eventually I gave up and just used a language that had a proper mechanism for doing it.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    Indeed, it’s a pity that many C replacements (notably Zig) don’t have that feature.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      It’s not built-in in zig but it’s easy to build a stack-backed allocator using FixedBufferAllocator and then add a heap allocator as a fallback.

                                                    2. 1

                                                      I feel if they let you control how VLAs were allocated, they wouldn’t become the despised footgun they are now.

                                                    1. 8

                                                      This list is missing ripgrep, despite it being the first entry in the results/results.yaml file.

                                                      1. 6

                                                        It seems like a strange thing to leave off. Then you look at the history and see that it was removed in the last couple of days, and it seems even stranger.

                                                        Edit to add… this appears to be why it’s removed and it looks like it is slated to return now that the curator of the list feels that they have @burntsushi’s permission

                                                        1. 5

                                                          FWIW, I didn’t mean to ask the creator to remove ripgrep from the list. I just thought the name was inaccurate in general, and used ripgrep specifically as an example (because I could obviously speak to that with certainty).

                                                      1. 10

                                                        I think this is important enough to have a thread about in lobsters.

                                                        As gerikson already pointed out, we’ve already had a thread about this. FOSS drama without any technical content just isn’t on-topic (please correct me if I’m wrong).

                                                        1. 15

                                                          My view of it is that this is a new development. We’ve had a thread about how Lee took control over Freenode, but this is about Lee forcibly removing control of Freenode channels from the channel operators and changing channel topics to prevent any mention of other networks. I think that’s significant enough to warrant a thread.

                                                          But I may be wrong. Feel free to mark as spam or off topic if you think this shouldn’t be its own thread.

                                                          1. 13

                                                            Yeah, there were plenty of people who saw the original news and said “wait and see; maybe the new owner will be reasonable”.

                                                            This new development is the opposite of that. It went from “it’d be a good idea to at least have a plan to move off freenode even if you don’t leave immediately” to “it’s over and done”.

                                                            1. 4

                                                              But I may be wrong. Feel free to mark as spam or off topic if you think this shouldn’t be its own thread.

                                                              I personally think it should be merged into the other topic as well, since I’m tired of Lobsters becoming the FOSS drama discussion spot. Moreover I’m pretty unhappy about everything that happened yesterday and I’d like to be able to tune this out for a while I regain some emotional fortitude.

                                                          1. 8

                                                            Why not jump from old and quirky IRC protocol to e.g. Matrix? Also, matrix is an open federation, so this kind of grab shouldn’t be possible.

                                                            1. 15

                                                              We are ourselves old and quirky.

                                                              Freenode had a ~25 year run, which is significantly better than the median free tier on an online service.

                                                              1. 5

                                                                It is indeed quite the accomplishment. But IRC is clearly on the decline.

                                                                1. 1

                                                                  IRC works well with very slow connections like dialup and archaic machines, but not unstable connections unfortunately, my main complaint is the lack of at least a small chat log without using 3rd party services/sw. Any small disruption will make me lose messages in a rural area internet.

                                                              2. 7

                                                                My main issue with Matrix is the lack of a client that I can run easily on extremely low-powered hardware. Just about all the major, well-supported clients are built on Electron. Compare that to IRC: you can have useful IRC client in just about ~5k lines of C (yes, I’ve written my own IRC client).

                                                                1. 4

                                                                  I have to wonder if this is really the limiting factor for IRC - if we’re measuring protocols based on what you can write on a coke can, IRC might win, but is that what people actually want?

                                                                  1. 2

                                                                    i do. the irc client i use is very fast and configurable. i don’t want to run a full web browser and 100000 tons of javascript just to exchange text with people. i currently use the weechat-matrix plugin for weechat to access matrix but it is unmaintained and missing many features i guess.

                                                                    1. 4

                                                                      weechat-matrix isn’t unmaintained - it’s stable. the author is prioritising matrix-rust-sdk, but weechat should work great.

                                                                      1. 2

                                                                        Yeah ok, ‘unmaintained’ is a little strong. My point is, nothing new is being added to improve support for matrix (multiline messages, etc) and there are lots and lots of quirks, having used it daily for many months now. And the author has made it clear they have no interest in improving the existing plugin while they go off and RWIR..

                                                                        It’s “good enough” for me, but a far cry from supporting everything matrix has to offer. That’s the case for almost all matrix clients though, as I’m sure you are aware.

                                                                      2. 3

                                                                        Fwiw I heard yesterday about https://github.com/poljar/weechat-matrix-rs . When it’s cooked it might be a good way for me to try Matrix seriously.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          Yeah, that has been around for a bit, and seems to be progressing along slowly. I don’t think it’s anywhere close to replacing the old python version of the plugin in its current state, and seems to be a long ways off from being there.

                                                                          1. 1

                                                                            Ah, good to know, thank you. Will keep an eye on it :)

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        https://github.com/tulir/gomuks is roughly 15k lines of Go (+ non-trivial LOC from dependencies of course).

                                                                      2. 4

                                                                        try hosting matrix

                                                                        1. 3

                                                                          What makes you think I haven’t?

                                                                          1. 5

                                                                            Everyone I’ve talked to personally who’s tried this has nothing but horror stories when it comes to running their own homeserver. The consensus I’ve heard is that it’s only practical if you have staff to look after it or if you prevent your channels from federating.

                                                                            I admire the vision but they have a long way to go before actually realizing the benefits of a decentralized system.

                                                                            1. 4

                                                                              I’ve had very few issues running it myself. I have Synapse, Postgres, and Nginx running along with IRC, Discord, and Slack app services on a 2 GB VPS. Other than the occasional upgrade, I’ve had minimal issues. I manage everything through my service manager, so usually it’s as simple as running an upgrade task and then restarting the service. That said, I have a lot of experience running web services, so that might contribute.

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                I’ve configured synapse by hand and using https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy/ . Both work well provided you read the documentation.

                                                                              2. 0

                                                                                you are using matrix.org

                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                  I have an account on matrix.org, true. That doesn’t prevent me from having accounts elsewhere. A matrix.org account is sometimes useful.

                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                    w.kline.sh/

                                                                                    I run my own too (@sumit:battlepenguin.im). It works pretty well, and I even have bridges working. Overall I think it’s way easier to stand up than XMPP (everything is over HTTP; there is that weird federated port but you can now use a normal LetsEncrypt cert and stick it behind a Traefik or HAProxy frontend).

                                                                                    I will say, scaling it would be difficult. I’ve heard other people complain about larger matrix servers with a lot of users and matrix.org has had issues with theirs after multiple huge refactors that dropped CPU usage. I think Matrix would be way better if there were multiple server implementations like ActivityPub does (Mastodon, Pleroma, Peertube, etc.) but it looks like development on the Go implementation is still slow going.

                                                                            2. 1

                                                                              Yes, go to Matrix, let the eternal september end here.

                                                                            1. 20

                                                                              For context, see https://www.kline.sh/

                                                                              As far as I can see, the birds have finally come home to roost from the sale of Freenode many years ago.

                                                                              Edit this submission can probably folded into https://lobste.rs/s/p50qbz/freenode_now_belongs_andrew_lee_i_m

                                                                              1. 24

                                                                                When I heard about the acquisition several years ago, I assumed the eventual result would be a lot more dire.

                                                                                Having a clean break and switching over to Libera Chat is a much better outcome than I expected. My hat is off to all the former freenode volunteers who have put in so much work to keep the network running and have successfully navigated this transition in a way that will protect the network for its users over corporate interests going forward.

                                                                                1. 10

                                                                                  This resignation letter also has some more backstory and lots of links: https://mniip.com/freenode.txt

                                                                                  And admin access to the freenode servers has been lost: https://twitter.com/freenodestaff/status/1395046345145307140

                                                                                  1. 10

                                                                                    This part is by far the worst:

                                                                                    Some users reported[6][7] that Andrew Lee had already started assembling a replacement team, and that people were bribed to join with the prospect of money, power, vanity, and even revenge on former staff[8].

                                                                                    1. 5

                                                                                      Oh, so our friendly neighborhood freenode admins will be replaced by people who are only in it for the power trip and the money. That’ll definitely end well.

                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                        Maybe I’m dense or maybe those chat logs were too long and I missed it. Where was the bribe?

                                                                                        1. 5

                                                                                          Not sure where money comes in, but here’s the power thing:

                                                                                          [23:06:08] <nirvana> and the opers will just /wallops and global notice their new network
                                                                                          [23:07:35] <Ariadne> i mean, i have important work to do.  dealing with an IRC network is not really something i want to be doing this decade outside of fucking around for fun with IRCX
                                                                                          [23:07:51] <Ariadne> i have code running on two planets
                                                                                          [23:07:53] <nirvana> but
                                                                                          [23:07:57] <nirvana> you can ban your enemies.
                                                                                          [23:08:01] <nirvana> im turning tomaw
                                                                                          [23:08:01] <Ariadne> i don't have enemies
                                                                                          [23:08:07] <nirvana> and jess in to a bot.
                                                                                          [23:08:22] <nirvana> i know you don't, we're older now
                                                                                          [23:08:25] <nirvana> more mature
                                                                                          [23:08:31] <nirvana> i was just trying to make you laugh
                                                                                          [23:08:52] <nirvana> dont tell me that sweet revenge of a kline /fuckyou - just ONE to those people who dissed on charybdis
                                                                                          [23:08:59] <nirvana> wouldn't make you feel good
                                                                                          [23:09:01] <Ariadne> i don't really care
                                                                                          [23:09:14] <nirvana> i think about it, i wouldn't do it though
                                                                                          [23:09:18] <nirvana> have to walk the higher path
                                                                                          [23:09:29] <nirvana> im still banned from snoonet lol
                                                                                          [23:10:58] <Ariadne> your employer owns snoonet
                                                                                          [23:11:45] <nirvana> i actually dont work for ltm
                                                                                          [23:11:50] <nirvana> still
                                                                                          [23:12:06] <nirvana> i work for his brother though
                                                                                          [23:12:09] <nirvana> alex lee
                                                                                          [23:12:48] <nirvana> i help where i can but im too busy at the office to do much else
                                                                                          [23:12:53] <nirvana> like have a girlfriend, mine left me ;/
                                                                                          [23:13:19] <nirvana> and actually i think its just prawnsalad that owns snoonet now
                                                                                          [23:13:21] <nirvana> i could be wrong tho
                                                                                          [23:15:44] <Ariadne> anyway, i think i've contributed as much as i can to the topic of IRC network governance with the charybdis and atheme software packages as well as the atheme operator workflow (of which freenode still uses 
                                                                                          to this day for training)
                                                                                          [23:16:07] <Ariadne> having an o:line means additional work for me.  it is a distraction.
                                                                                          [23:16:37] <nirvana> ill make sure you get +oO in #freenode
                                                                                          [23:16:40] <nirvana> so you can kick people
                                                                                          [23:16:44] <Ariadne> why the hell do i want that
                                                                                          [23:16:45] <nirvana> my gift to you pal
                                                                                          [23:16:56] <Ariadne> stop trying to bribe me
                                                                                          [23:16:59] <Ariadne> this is just pathetic
                                                                                          [23:17:05] <nirvana> might even give you flags +f
                                                                                          [23:17:08] <nirvana> so your friends cna join in
                                                                                          
                                                                                    2. 2

                                                                                      This is VERY interesting. Happy to see IRC is still around, at least.

                                                                                    1. 84

                                                                                      The network is the people, not a domain name. #lobsters is staying with Libera.Chat.

                                                                                      1. 6

                                                                                        freenode has taken over the #lobsters namespace*. I was in the channel directing people to the current place, but I’ve left to avoid any appearance of sanctioning freenode’s channel. Given how long we were present there may be some confusion, so I wanted to leave an explicit comment that, no, there is nothing on freenode that is in any way affiliated with any aspect of this website.

                                                                                        • Along with hundreds of others. And removed every banmask, which they’ll learn to regret pretty quickly.
                                                                                        1. 4

                                                                                          So basically Libera.Chat is an old-fashioned permanent netsplit, where every channel in the original network is also available there? I haven’t seen those in over twenty years!

                                                                                          1. 18

                                                                                            where every channel in the original network is also available there?

                                                                                            No. Communities that want to move to Libera will have to create the channels there as well, nothing is created/moved “automatically”.

                                                                                            1. 14

                                                                                              I don’t think it’s like that; I will be shutting down all the freenode channels I operate as soon as the matrix bridge to Libera is operational. There will be stragglers, but I don’t know of any channels which are seriously considering remaining on freenode.

                                                                                              1. 4

                                                                                                Can you please explain why Matrix is such a killer feature for you? I keep seeing it mentioned, but I don’t know much about it, particularly how it is better/different than other chat technologies that have come and gone over the years (e.g. jabber).

                                                                                                1. 5

                                                                                                  I use Matrix to bridge all my other cats together. I can get Signal, Telegram, Hangouts and Matrix all in one place (FB too until I abandoned that).

                                                                                                  My Google voice I recently moved to jmp.chat/XMPP and sadly the XMPP bridges to Matrix are lacking. I’ve started looking at biforst, but it’s super early alpha.

                                                                                                  1. 5

                                                                                                    I personally don’t care much about Matrix, but in the channels I operate, we have a decent contingent of users connecting from Matrix because they prefer not to have to set up a bouncer to get messages when they’re disconnected. For my own use, the bouncer setup is way better, but I’m trying to be accommodating for the preference of others.

                                                                                                    In theory, the idea of truly federated chat is awesome, but in practice everyone uses the flagship server and setting up your own homeserver is intensely unpleasant. So they have a long way to go to actually achieve the benefits of decentralization really.

                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                      IMO the benefits are here if you use it as a glorified IRC bouncer. Yes I know there are plenty of those already but I’m too lazy to host one and I don’t want to pay for one.

                                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                                        I agree it’s a serviceable bouncer, but the benefits of decentralization have nothing to do with that.

                                                                                                    2. 1

                                                                                                      Simple answer for me: Matrix is the IRC bouncer I always wanted but never had the discipline to keep running successfully.

                                                                                                      Persistent presence on all the channels I care about. Huge win.

                                                                                              1. 5

                                                                                                Finally got around to restarting my roguelike attempt, this time heavily inspired by pushcx’s 7DRL Ironwood. I just can’t stop myself from getting obsessed on the mapgen, though.