1. 2

    Nice project! I’ve had something similar living in the back of my head for a while. Shame it doesn’t work on X11, but X11 being what it is, well… I don’t blame the author.

    1. 3

      Now that I think of it, it shouldn’t be too hard to hack up an X11 version with xdotool and an i3 mode….

      1. 1

        nomouse might help (though it doesn’t support click…)

      2. 2

        the feature is builtin in X: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_keys

      1. 7

        Nothing wrong with cat a b | c. Piping cat’s output into another process is only an “anti-pattern” if you invoke it with a single argument.

        1. 7

          I have modified the README to clarify this is meant to make fun of not liking cat-into-pipe.

          1. 4

            Should be tagged satire in that case.

            1. 2

              Done.

        1. 4

          Some thoughts:

          @minimum and @maximum

          Why not @min and @max?

          usingnamespace No Longer Affects Identifier Lookup

          Ugh. In most of my projects I tend to have the equivalent of “common.h”, where all the basic types and globals are defined. In Zig I would use usingnamespace to import them all into local scope, so that I could reference them with minimum fuss. I’m probably going to have to fix 80% of identifiers in my 15kloc Zig project now when upgrading.

          And yeah, I know I was one of those “abusing” usingnamespace with that usage. And I’m aware of the benefits of reducing the amount of non-local awareness so as to increase code readability. But what’s the big deal about skimming over one file (types.zig) to understand what all those types are? I wish Zig would leave it up to the programmer to decide this.

          Saturating Arithmetic

          This is great! Now I can delete some more clumsy helpers from utils.zig

          Compile Errors for Unused Locals

          Thanks, I absolutely hate it. And just to think that unused functions are going to become errors as well…


          PS: apologies if this is a bit incoherent, I’m not feeling all that well at the moment.

          1. 8

            Non-programming languages:

            • German
            • Icelandic (currently learning it actually)
            • Swedish

            Programming languages:

            • Going to really try and give Python another chance (though I doubt I’ll get far)
            • More fluency in Lua
            • Various lisps
            1. 2

              Good luck with the language learning! I’m personally learning Hebrew (well, was learning, recent busyness put a stop to it)

              1. 1

                For the human languages: are you planning to move to any of these countries or just for the fun of it?

                1. 3

                  Icelandic is more important, I have a friend in Iceland and I was planning to take a trip there sometime. As for German and Swedish, I just like those languages so those will be for the fun of it.

              1. 10

                Aside: I wish we could banish the word ‘modern’ from software descriptions. It communicates next to nothing.

                1. 11

                  Reminds me of how fish’s webpage still describes it as “Finally, a command line shell for the 90s” :)

                  1. 13

                    Fish started in the 2000’s, so I believe that’s a joke about the pace of UX advancement in text shells.

                  2. 7

                    Actually I find it useful when it’s used in the context of C++ libraries. The “modern library” tag suggests to me that it uses one of the newer C++ dialects, doesn’t use autotools, is more user-friendly, etc.

                    1. 2

                      This is a pet peeve of mine as well. It strikes me as a weasel word. To me, a good sniff test would be to imagine reading a description of a utility from a 20 year old archive. Would the word “modern” help the reader understand the tool? Probably not.

                      1. 1

                        I can understand the technical idea. But for me it does make sense for archive formats (and looking at the date).

                      1. 18

                        All I want in my technical life at this point is to use less google software.

                        1. 3

                          I understand staying away from Chrome, Gmail, and Android due to the surveillance, but what’s inherently wrong with a new OS kernel, even if it is Google that’s developing it?

                        1. 9

                          babymosesinabasket, was not expecting to see Google use suckless.org’s sbase, all with their minimalist software and quirky argument parsing (ahh, arg.h, my favorite) in the name of “simplicity” (since when did Google care about that?). Maybe because it’d be easier to port, being much smaller than, say, Busybox or GNU coreutils?

                          1. 19

                            We also use a fork of musl for our libc. When you’re really not unix it’s way easier to get something very simple up and running. The things I did to get opensshd running are not pretty.

                            (I work on Fuchsia, I do not speak for my employer, etc)

                            1. 5

                              As someone who works on Fuchsia, can you comment on something that’s missing from the article: namely, there’s fear that a primary motivation for developing an alternative to Linux is to avoid the copyleft requirements of the GPLv2. This would result in creating devices for which alternative operating systems such as LineagoOS or PostmarketOS would no longer be possible. Is this discussed or a concern by people who are working directly on Fuchsia?

                              1. 3

                                I can’t comment on what my lovely employer’s motivations are - they seem to have a general policy of releasing under Apache-style licenses which I think is roughly what most of what Fuchsia is released under. Much of the internal documentation about this stuff is posted publicly. If the primary goal was to have an operating system that didn’t have the constraints of the GPL then building something largely from scratch would seem to me to be a terribly inefficient way to do it. There are plenty of great operating systems like FreeBSD that could easily be taken as the basis for a non-GPL Linux replacement. FreeBSD, being a POSIX-style OS is much much closer to Linux than Fuchsia is or is designed to be.

                                I personally am an ardent believer in copyleft, especially the *GPL family. I remember where I was sitting about 25 years ago when my friend Peter told me to read What Is Free Software. Over the past 25 years I’ve worked for companies that have written both free software (under a variety of licenses including GPL, MPL & Apache) and proprietary software. I’ve contributed to a open source projects and released my own creations. When I own the copyright on something I almost always choose the GPL or LGPL unless there’s a clearly established alternative license within the ecosystem I’m contributing to. While lots of the work I’ve done hasn’t increased the amount of software freedom in the world I wouldn’t work on something that I thought would reduce the amount of software freedom and I don’t think Fuchsia does.

                            2. 6

                              I also assume they used our sbase due to portability and licensing, and am glad to know they were able to make use of it.

                              What’s wrong with arg.h’s rock-solid argument parsing? :)

                              1. 2

                                What’s wrong with arg.h’s rock-solid argument parsing? :)

                                I have a love-hate relation with it. On one hand, it’s slightly more straightforward to use than getopt, and works perfectly on Windows. On the other hand, it doesn’t support long arguments and I recall it having strange parsing issues with certain inputs (but that was a while ago, it’s entirely possible that I’m misremembering or that the issues were fixed in the mean time).

                            1. 13

                              Sabbatical for 5-8 months, I think

                              See you all next spring!

                              1. 5

                                Your last seven submissions were:

                                • xmake v2.5.8
                                • xmake v2.5.7
                                • xmake v2.5.6
                                • xmake v2.5.5
                                • xmake v2.5.4
                                • C/C++ build system, I use xmake
                                • xmake v2.5.3

                                Stop spamming.

                                1. 2

                                  Someday, I learned Lobste.rs is not very fond of people submitting mostly their own work (a.k.a. self-promoting posts). So I got curious and went to see the author’s submissions.

                                  Well, out of 89 submissions, 87 are “authored by ruki”, one is not marked but is from their personal blog (therefore, 88 self-authored submissions) and one submission, three years ago, which isn’t self-promoting.

                                  1. 4

                                    There are a few people who mostly submit their own stuff (@soatok comes to mind) that the community is fine with, because it’s consistently engaging and high quality. But even then I think it’s good etiquette to also submit and comment on other stories. I try to keep the ratio of my stuff : other stuff below 1:4.

                                    I think at one point @pushcx estimated that frontpaging on Lobsters drives as much traffic as tens of thousands in marketing budget.

                                    1. 3

                                      What chafes me it’s basically very minor releases. If it’s a big headlining release, OK (assuming you also submit other stuff…). If it’s chump change, why bother except for the clicks?

                                      1. 2

                                        I don’t think this is a small version change. I have a lot of new features and improvements for each version, and I also introduce them in detail in the article.

                                        In addition, I only submit an update every few months, and it is not very frequent. And I see that other shorter versions of articles are allowed. Why my article is considered spam, I am very confused, such as this one, https://lobste.rs/s/hjge7k/python_release_3_10_0 https://lobste.rs/s/qj806e/zig_0_8_0_release_notes https://lobste.rs/s/prutnh/zig_v0_7_0_released https://lobste.rs/s/oln4mx/llvm_13_released

                                        Well, if you are bored with this, I will not submit them in the future, I am very sorry.

                                        1. 3

                                          I don’t think this is a small version change. I have a lot of new features and improvements for each version, and I also introduce them in detail in the article.

                                          No doubt it seems that way to you, as you are the software author. But to us the changes are minor, sorry :(

                                          In addition, I only submit an update every few months, and it is not very frequent. And I see that other shorter versions of articles are allowed. Why my article is considered spam, I am very confused, such as this one, https://lobste.rs/s/hjge7k/python_release_3_10_0 https://lobste.rs/s/qj806e/zig_0_8_0_release_notes https://lobste.rs/s/prutnh/zig_v0_7_0_released https://lobste.rs/s/oln4mx/llvm_13_released

                                          Thing is, those who submit those posts don’t submit only those release notes. If someone came along from the Python project and submitted a story for every single minor release Python ever did, and only submitted those, well, it wouldn’t be very nice, even if those versions of python had some great features.

                                          Well, if you are bored with this, I will not submit them in the future, I am very sorry.

                                          I wouldn’t mind the occasional post detailing something novel about xmake, or the very occasional major release notes. But it would be nice if you participated in other ways as well.

                                1. 13

                                  I need to learn to read the actual article before freaking out over the title.

                                  EDIT: @hwayne would recommend editing the title slightly to prevent misunderstandings, as apparently I’m not the only one. Maybe something like “Design with Judaism in mind”.

                                  1. 13

                                    EDIT: @hwayne would recommend editing the title slightly to prevent misunderstandings, as apparently I’m not the only one. Maybe something like “Design with Judaism in mind”.

                                    I think it’s a great title exactly because of this. Far too many people comment without actually reading the damn article. I’ve been (re)watching Babylon 5 and I’m reminded by this scene. “I always leave a little room for someone to disappoint me”.

                                    1. 12

                                      Obvious trolling is obvious, and frankly a pleasant surprise in the current climate. I appreciate it. Not jewish myself, but Grandma’s name was Solomon and I’ve got some uncles who look like cartoon propaganda art.

                                      1. 5

                                        I think that’s a better title. “Jewmain” is a novel coinage, and while it’s easy enough to figure out that this article is about Jews, it took me a second reading to realize the pun on “domain-driven”, which is a bit of a stretch.

                                        1. 2

                                          Yes I was confused at first sight as well, but reading the article brought up some points I didn’t know about, like with the oven or how in Israel, Passover is 7 days as opposed to 8. I guess it’s a good thought exercise in how you add logic to your programming to support cases like these.

                                          1. 5

                                            The oven isn’t the only appliance with Sabbath mode. I believe there are also elevators that stop at every floor so you don’t have to operate the elevator.

                                            1. 1

                                              There’s a Sabbath elevator at Johns Hopkins. I would expect them in any major US city with a large Jewish population.

                                              1. 1

                                                I’ve only ever seen them at Johns Hopkins hospital and in New York City personally. I’m sure there are more of them, but I’ve never seen one in Chicago, for instance. Nor in Atlanta. Nor in DC, Nor in Miami. Nor in Los Angeles. Nor in San Francisco. Nor in Boston. Nor in Minneapolis. Those are just the specific major US where I’ve spent more than a few weeks without observing one. What other locations do you see them in?

                                                Also, is there any reason (other than familiarity) that you confined your expectation to US cities? I’ve never seen one in Paris or London, for instance, but I’d have had no specific reason to expect (or not expect) to.

                                                1. 7

                                                  The number of Jews living in the US is vastly higher than abroad, by orders of magnitude. Accommodations I’m used to here are literally unheard of in Europe, even in the big cities. I’d guess that where @carlmjohnson was coming from.

                                                  Edit: and it hits me that things like the French concept of laïcité actively work to discourage accommodations.

                                                  1. 6

                                                    To buttress this point with some data, over half of all living Jews today live in America. Another 30% live in Israel. The next highest country by population, France, accounts for a mere 3% of the world’s Jewish population — where they make up 0.7% of the country’s population; less than half of their prevalence in America, which is 1.5%, and so not explainable simply by virtue of France being a smaller country than America.

                                                    And it’s even more concentrated than that data might appear to show: 1.5 million of America’s 7.6 million Jews live in the NYC metro area, which is greater than the Jewish population of Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, and D.C. combined. To put that in perspective, over 10% of all Jews alive today live specifically in the NYC metro area — and even in NYC they are nonetheless a small minority of city residents. There just aren’t that many Jews living in the world. Most places have almost none.

                                                    And not to put too fine a point on it, but that isn’t by accident. Europe, including France when it was under German occupation, genocided nearly all of its Jews: successfully murdering two out of every three European Jews, and most of the one-third remaining survivors fled to America, where they arrived at Ellis Island in the NYC area. The Middle East and North Africa unsuccessfully tried to do the same, albeit in a less organized fashion: those native Middle Eastern and North African Jews were largely saved by fleeing to Israel, where they make up 61% of the Israeli Jewish population, contrary to many Americans’ assumptions that Israeli Jews are mainly white descendants of Europeans.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      In my experience, synagogues in Europe always have guys with machine guns standing around out front. It is very different than the US.

                                                      I wouldn’t say though that the US as a whole has very high numbers of Jewish people. NYC specifically and then a few other Northeast cities do. Baltimore, for instance, has a large number of Orthodox Jews who caught measles pre-pandemic. I’m not as familiar with the rest of the country but I think there are a couple of enclaves in various cities throughout the midwest and whatnot.

                                                      An interesting comparison is the number of Native Americans, which IIRC is approximately same at a national level (around 1% of US population), but the distribution is completely different, so there are very few Native Americans in NYC, Baltimore, etc. and a lot in the West, Southwest, etc.

                                                    2. 1

                                                      Oh, there’s at least one in LA (Cedars-Sinai). Placards on the door too.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Plenty of them in Toronto hospitals.

                                                        1. 2

                                                          It makes perfect sense that they’d be more common at hospitals. I was scratching my head at how I’d not noticed them most places, even ones I’d visited quite a lot. Especially since it’s the kind of thing I find interesting and would take notice of.

                                                          I (thankfully!) rarely visit the hospital.

                                                          1. 2

                                                            You’ll only find Shabbat elevators in places Jews would conceivably be on Shabbat. So, no office buildings or the like; just apartments and doctors’ offices. (And a few other things I’m glossing for expediency.)

                                                            You’d also have to know to look for them. In one of my NYC apartments, a freight elevator was a Shabbos elevator, but, since tenants wouldn’t normally be using the freight elevator, most didn’t know about it.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              Both my daughters were born at Mount Sinai, which, I guess it shouldn’t be remarkable lol

                                                      2. 1

                                                        Don’t forget the Sabbath light switch!

                                                    3. 2

                                                      I’m curious, what was your initial response?

                                                      1. 12

                                                        Mine was “Oh fsck me, how did antisemitism make it this high on Lobste.rs!”

                                                        1. 1

                                                          That was also my instant reaction, which lasted until I noticed the author’s name in the URL.

                                                    1. 5

                                                      Participating in the Octojam 8!

                                                      1. 2

                                                        We couldn’t find your page

                                                        Did you link the right page?

                                                        Found the right page: https://itch.io/jam/octojam-8

                                                        1. 2

                                                          Ah, thanks, I’ve fixed the link.

                                                      1. 1

                                                        Finished working on an OSS reimplementation of cel7. Time to write documentation, uhg (and possibly work on a toy Orca-inspired esoteric language for a cool demo).

                                                        1. 41

                                                          This website was apparently made by @jcs, who also happened to found a rather obscure link aggregator known as “Lobsters”

                                                          1. 22

                                                            I’ll never understand why WSL wasn’t named “Linux Subsystem for Windows”.

                                                            1. 21

                                                              Because Windows has historically had several subsystems, including the OS/2 subsystem, POSIX subsystem, and, most famously, the Win16 subsystem, which were all called e.g. “Windows Subsystem for OS/2”. WSL1 built on roughly the same model, and so ended up with a similar name. WSL2 is entirely different, but we’ve got the name stuck now.

                                                              Note, I’m not really disagreeing with you, but just explaining that this naming convention is just how Windows has named its subsystems for a long time.

                                                              1. 4

                                                                Would it have made more sense to call it “OS/2 Subsystem for Windows?” Or is there some reason the reverse made more sense?

                                                                1. 6

                                                                  Back in the 90s, when this showed up with the first versions of Windows NT, the word “applications” was either explicit or obviously implicit (I sincerely forget which) for all of these. So “Windows Subsystem for OS/2 Applications,” or “…for POSIX Applications,” if you will. At the time, Windows NT was trying to subsume minicomputer and (in some cases) mainframe environments, but not vice-versa, so the ambiguity the elision has in 2021 just didn’t exist in 92 or whenever this was.

                                                                  1. 3

                                                                    One wonders why the word “Windows” was not implicit too. Of course it is a Windows subsystem. It is a subsystem on your Windows. You don’t have subsystems for other operating systems on your Windows than for Windows. Otherwise it would not be a _sub_system, right?

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      The Windows 2000 bootscreen would say “built on NT technology”. I always thought that was slightly amusing (I would have done the same though since not everyone knows that NT stands for “new technology”; most people in fact don’t know).

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        “NT” did stand for New Techology but I think by the time W2000 rolled around it was just its own term - “Windows NT” was the server version of Windows.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          This joke was already running around cca. 2002 or so: https://imgur.com/a/UhSmCdf (this one’s a newer incarnation, I think). By that time the NT was definitely its own term. I remember people thinking it stood for “networking” as early as 1998 or so.

                                                              2. 5

                                                                This is from the company that named the phone they pinned all their iPhone rivalry hopes to the “Windows Phone 7 Series” so honestly I don’t think we can ask too much.

                                                                Think of it this way: you’d like it to be

                                                                (Linux Subsystem) for Windows

                                                                But instead it is:

                                                                Windows (Subsystem for Linux)

                                                                There’s just a missing apostrophe to denote possession that would fix it all:

                                                                Windows’ Subsystem for Linux

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  but it’s not for linux, it’s for windows.

                                                                  1. 2

                                                                    Windows Subsystem for (running) Linux.

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      but you don’t run linux (the kernel), you just run a GNU userland right?

                                                                      (inb4 “I’d like to interject…”)

                                                                      1. 2

                                                                        In this particular case, WSL2 literally is purely about the Linux kernel. You can use any distro you want, including those with a BSD or Busybox userland.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          what does it mean to be “about the linux kernel”

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            It is a Linux kernel running in a virtual machine. WSL1 was a binary compatibility layer, WSL2 is actually a VM running a Linux kernel.

                                                                            1. 1

                                                                              I see, thanks

                                                                2. 2

                                                                  My understanding is that by that point there were a few “Windows Subsystems” already, not necessarily implementing other OS APIs.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    There were originally 5, I think: • Win32 • WOW – Windows on Windows – the Win16 subsystem • DOS • OS/2 (for text-mode apps only) • POSIX (the NT Unix environment)

                                                                    OS/2 was deprecated in 3.51 and dropped in 4.

                                                                    64-bit NT drops the old WOW16 subsystem, but replaces it with WOW32 for running Win32 apps on Win64.

                                                                    The POSIX subsystem has now been upgraded to be Linux-kernel compatible.

                                                                    WSL 2 is different; it’s a dedicated Hyper-V VM with a custom Linux kernel inside.

                                                                1. 3

                                                                  No. They’re not. Do you want ants? Because that’s how you get ants.

                                                                  1. 2

                                                                    It is a finely-crafted constructive comment. It menaces with spikes of snarkiness.

                                                                  1. 14

                                                                    The choice is between an Electron app or no macOS app.

                                                                    Really? Were there no other cross-platform GUI toolkits you could have used?

                                                                    1. 15

                                                                      I wrote and maintain an Electron application. If I weren’t using Electron, if the application would exist at all, it would be Linux-only. There’s a very simple reason why: we use interactive SVGs a lot throughout the application, because we need an image that resembles a keyboard, and SVGs make that easy. GTK can’t do that, QT can’t do that. They can display SVGs, sure, but they don’t support interactive SVGs, only via a webview. Since about 90% of the stuff the app does is tied to interacting with that SVG, there’s no point in using a native toolkit, when most of it will be spent in the same WebKit anyway.

                                                                      We could, of course, build our own widgets instead of using SVGs, but that’s way more time investment than we can afford. We - well, I - explored the native options. None of them would’ve allowed me to build the app as it is today. Electron did.

                                                                      Sometimes there are good reasons for using Electron.

                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        not svgs, but the tk vector canvas is surprisingly capable and nice to use.

                                                                      2. 12

                                                                        Honestly, I have a dim view of cross-platform toolkits having used them and developed on them. UX-wise, they’re about as bad mouthfeel-wise as Electron. I had to do quite a bit of work to get Qt to have not awful mouthfeel on Mac OS. I find most of the advocates of cross-platform UI toolkits tend to be on Linux, which was historically a pretty low bar UX-wise and clamouring for any application. You’d get better performance, but it’s not a strong argument from the UX side.

                                                                        1. 6

                                                                          Honestly, in my experience they’re worse than Electron apps. At least standard text input shortcuts work in Electron! The “cross-platform” toolkits tend to look non-native, just like an Electron app (although often more dated), and have very… weird shortcut support, e.g. macOS Emacs-style keyboard input.

                                                                        2. 7

                                                                          What would you recommend? I don’t mean this adversarially, it’s just that every time I’ve looked for a good cross-platform GUI toolkit, I’ve come back disappointed. I hate working with Qt because Qt bindings vary in quality across languages and I’d rather not use Qt’s stdlib over the C++ stdlib when writing C++ because I have much more experience with the C++ stdlib. Gtk similarly has some pretty poor bindings in certain languages. Tk is probably the toolkit I’ve enjoyed using the most, but it’s rapidly losing mindshare from what I can tell.

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            I agree with you that the state of cross-platform GUI toolkits is bad. I love GTK on Linux, and as far as I can tell, its language bindings are consistently good, even when they’re third-party. But GTK support on Windows is second-class, and on MacOS has historically been terrible (but is maybe getting better?).

                                                                            When I was looking at a toolkit to use for a cross-platform graphical Common Lisp app, the best I could find was Tk, despite its limitations.

                                                                          2. 4

                                                                            I think so? There are options you can use, but there are no really good options. https://blog.royalsloth.eu/posts/sad-state-of-cross-platform-gui-frameworks/ is a nice survey.

                                                                            1. 2

                                                                              They missed some third-party XAML implementations like https://avaloniaui.net/ It’s going to be closer to javafx, but with a great RAD environment (visual studio)

                                                                              I hope MAUI will get a community Linux back-end. That would make it a good alternative too.

                                                                            2. 4

                                                                              i mean you have to buy into the react paradigm but react native can compile to windows and mac in addition to ios and android

                                                                              https://microsoft.github.io/react-native-windows/

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                I guess people really haven’t tried how fast you can get stuff running with QT. Yeah it’s not completely native (and it can also be used the electron way since some version), but that’s not something you get with electron either. To be fair, you have to use c++ (with QT additions) or python for it..

                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                  I inherited a Qt project once. It was awful. I’ve never used Electron, but I know enough about it to pick it over Qt in most circumstances.

                                                                                  Not sure there are many other options if you’re targeting desktop. Proton looks promising. Microsoft’s React Native for Windows and Mac does as well. Both are similar concepts with ostensibly less overhead than Electron. Anyone here try those?

                                                                                1. 9

                                                                                  I’ve experienced it years ago, in an intense period of C programming. I went out for a walk and my mind was parsing other people as structs.

                                                                                  1. 18

                                                                                    At least you weren’t treating them like objects.

                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                      That’s true, I guess I’m not very object oriented.

                                                                                  1. 3

                                                                                    This is so interesting. It looks like something I’d like to build at some point, if only to recreate that rather relaxing devil-may-care attitude towards time and punctuality (generally speaking) that’s seen in some undeveloped countries. What’s that you say? I’m 10 minutes late? …so?

                                                                                    1. 5

                                                                                      You are allowed to be relaxed about time and punctuality! It is not a sign of being undeveloped¹! It’s just a reflection of what you currently value (which is also formed by context and people around you)! Probably you are already relaxed about time in some situations, and stressed about it in others!

                                                                                      ¹What does ‘undeveloped’ even mean? There are many things it can mean. It’s one of those words you should really only use as a shorthand in a long-running communcation, when you’ve already reached consensus on what it means here.

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        You are allowed to be relaxed about time and punctuality! It is not a sign of being undeveloped¹!

                                                                                        It’s probably just me, but I don’t look at being “underdeveloped” (my definition, anyway :/) as a bad thing!

                                                                                        It’s just a reflection of what you currently value (which is also formed by context and people around you)!

                                                                                        Possibly, but (again, generally speaking) it’s not easy to be very relaxed on time in the UK/US, in my experience (but looking at jtm’s comment, this is apparently not the case everywhere). The meetup is at 1440, sir. 1400 is 1400, not 1445!

                                                                                        What does ‘undeveloped’ even mean?

                                                                                        Yeah, I should have been more specific :/ By “undeveloped” I don’t mean “poor” or “third-world”, I mean more rural-type areas where the majority of the population is engaged in blue-collar work.

                                                                                      2. 3

                                                                                        interesting. It looks like something I’d like to build at some point, if only to recreate that rather relaxing devil-may-care attitude towards time and punctuality (generally speaking) that’s seen in some undeveloped countries. What’s that you say? I’m 10

                                                                                        I’m not at all opposed to this, but at the same time I feel like parties who are often 10 minutes late come across as caring very little about wasting the time of other people.

                                                                                        I suppose the natural solution to this is to adjust one’s expectations for party’s who are oftentimes late… but I suppose my own concern for potentially wasting their time holds me back from doing so.

                                                                                        1. 6

                                                                                          I feel like parties who are often 10 minutes late come across as caring very little about wasting the time of other people.

                                                                                          I think this feeling is largely cultural. In Brazil, punctuality feels much less important compared to the US or UK. In fact, there’s a phrase “horário britânico”, which means “British time”, used to describe something punctual.

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                                                                                            Hah – maybe that’s it, given I’m a Brit!

                                                                                            That’s interesting to know, thanks for sharing.

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                                                                                          I think one can be relaxed about timescales and timetables while still being punctual when an event is scheduled for a specific time, IMHO.