1. 2

    This sounds interesting. I wonder if the talks will be recorded and published?

    1. 8

      We should have recordings.

      1. 6

        Talks will be recorded, and posted on the site

        1. 3

          read the announcement twice, and missed that. sorry.

      1. 19

        I set out to write a comprehensive answer to this, but I suspect it comes off as more polemical and less informative than I’d prefer:

        http://helpful.cat-v.org/Blog/2019/12/03/0/

        1. 5

          Thanks for the write up. There is one thing missing and perhaps everybody using a computer would be interested in. How do you do backup?

          1. 4

            Thank you. I’m starting a series on individual howto topics. This would make a good one. Hint: http://man.9front.org/8/mkfs

            1. 2

              Excellent! Looking forward to this.

          2. 2

            Thank you for this (as well as your previous comments). Very informative.

            1. 1

              Thanks a lot, that was great. I’ve been following your sites for a while and I’ve always wondered what your day-to-day computing experience looked like

            1. 15

              TL;DR: 9front plays well with other systems with very few setup.

              If you do not want to install 9front on your main disk and boot it by default, you may make use of a virtual machine, either local or hosted on a VPS or some computer at home.

              Then you can connect to it through http://drawterm.9front.org/, which does provide a “plan 9 window” (think of SSH + X11 forwarding + SFTP onto a much simpler protocol).

              It is surprising how well this works in practice since drawterm got resizing support : all the windows inside it will be resized equally well due to how plan9 handles resizes.

              You can start a window in system (rio) in it, or directly one application (acme, sam, other…).

              You can also copy paste from/to it, and have your local filesystem mounted inside 9front for sharing files between the local and remote.

              After a while, you can integrate more of 9front onto your environment (replace a DNS (ndb+cs) / mail (imap,smtp,spamfilter) / VPN (tinc) server with it. It works well.

              Given all of these are filesystems available as 9p streams, you can mount them onto other non-9front systems. Here comes all the fun: use 9p servers so that systems provide services to others. You can mount natively 9p on linux and through FUSE https://github.com/mischief/9pfs

              Then the frontier between 9front systems and other systems tends to blur, and you achieved distribution of your computing through multiple systems. I haven’t been that far due to lack of time (and other project ongoing).

              In this vision, you can use 9front for getting some work done, and make use of other systems for what else good they have and 9front lacks, and the other way around.

              I did not test the other way around: running Linux or alike in 9front. as it has an hypervisor: http://man.9front.org/1/vmx

              1. 4

                If you use macOS and have a retina display, you can use my fork of drawterm, https://bitbucket.org/j-xy/drawterm/, which has the same metal backend as the one in plan9port devdraw.

                By the way, with the new mailing list host, you can see all the “glory/gory” details about the community at https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans

                1. 2

                  Nice, have you thought about getting your patches into the drawterm that 9front ships?

                  1. 3

                    Sure. I talked to folks on irc, but it didn’t get anywhere, apart from one commit, https://code.9front.org/hg/drawterm/rev/ff43e9bf3cea

                    1. 2

                      post to the 9front mailing list or e-mail cinap directly.

                2. 3

                  You got me to upload the ISO to a VPS on Vultr, and I can connect to its console and get a window manager! Thank you.

                  I don’t have a 3-button mouse, though. IIRC that’s pretty essential? Is there some way to emulate middle-click, particularly over the internet?

                  I see a terminal window open. How can I open a second?

                  I haven’t yet tried drawterm, but I look forward to trying it out next.

                  1. 2

                    Thank you for your input. This gradual approach does indeed sound sensible.

                  1. 2

                    For the people advising Common Lisp over Racket, what do you feel are the “must read” books?

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                      I really need to make the effort and transition to FF.

                      1. 21

                        It’s really not an effort. Firefox is just a better browser at this point.

                        1. 14

                          Yet Firefox gets a LOT of hate for…. Just about everything.

                          Given that it’s the only 100% open source browser with any market share to speak of, I struggle to understand people’s stance on this.

                          1. 6

                            Higher expectations, I suppose

                            1. 4

                              Yeah I think that’s a big part of it. Most people who like to throw shade at Firefox prefer some niche browser or other, because that meets their particular preferences, priorities and needs better.

                            2. 2

                              Lack of vertical tabs.

                              :-P

                              1. 1

                                Can you articulate why lack of vertical tabs is such a deal breaker for you? Just aesthetics or is there a functional reason?

                                1. 3
                                  • Vertical tabs conserve horizontal screen space; important as displays lose more and more height and gain more width with each year.
                                  • Switching tabs using the mouse requires a large (> 100px) and non-predictable (due to varying tab widths) amount of hand movement; vertical tabs always take the same, small movement.
                                  • Horizontal tabs start to get compressed and increasingly harder to read with >8 tabs; vertical tabs always keep the same width.

                                  These are the functional reasons, but this doesn’t mean that vertical tabs should allowed to be aesthetically repulsive, just as long as they provide these features.

                                  Compare this dog’s breakfast Firefox devs force upon people with this design for instance.

                                  1. 1

                                    I’m an unusual edge case where UX is concerned so I’ll appreciate your radically different perspective and thank you for taking the time to elucidate it!

                                    For me, the mouse is a productivity vampire. I avoid it like the plague. I use keyboard based random access to get to tabs and never have more than 9 open at once so it’s never a problem.

                                    I have fine and gross motor difficulties so getting the mouse to move where I want and to actually hit the accursed tiny clicky thing is torture :)

                            3. 11

                              Yeah, I don’t really understand this conception. I have the hardest time trying to convince my friends to switch, they always state it’s too much of a hassle. What hassle? Bookmarks, history, passwords and even settings all automatically imported on first run. Thanks to web extensions, most extensions are a simple re-install away (or worst case alternatives are easily found with a quick search).

                              1. 1

                                That´s all true both, and yet there is something freaking sticky about Chrome. But you are completely right.

                              2. 7

                                do they have user-friendly multiprofile? That’s always been the blocker for me

                                1. 1

                                  Same here. Containers are nice but I use profiles a lot in Chrome. Having the separation of history is useful. Firefox still doesn’t have a good way of managing profiles.

                                  1. 1

                                    I’m using different profiles, a personal one, and a work one, and it works great. I’ve never used multiple profiles on chrome though, so I don’t know how it would compare.

                                    1. 3

                                      Chrome profiles are a first-class feature available by clicking on your profile picture on the menu bar: https://imgur.com/a/j6vIeG2

                                      While Firefox has profiles, they seem a bit tedious to set up and manage https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/profile-manager-create-and-remove-firefox-profiles. It looks like the only way of controlling them is through about:profiles - do you use them this way or some other way?

                                      1. 1

                                        I’m afraid I do use them through about:profiles. Chrome’s do look better, I must say, but Firefox’s work well enough for me :)

                                  2. 4

                                    Chromium’s UI is better than Firefox, IMO.

                                    On the same machine (2011 27” iMac, Debian, 16 Gb RAM, 3.6 Ghz i5) Chromium is noticeably snappier, smoother, and less glitchy.

                                    Right now, even as I’m typing this, I’m experiencing a glitch where popup menus (from right click or clicking the >> button, for example) show up for a fraction of a second and disappear.

                                    1. 3

                                      It is an effort. I switched a few months ago and it took me a few solid weeks to get comfy. I had to sink lots of time into configuring tridactyl.

                                      Just depends of workflows really.

                                      Other things that require a similar level of effort (or more): changing your email client, changing your shell, changing your window manager.

                                      1. 3

                                        I suppose I am a rather vanilla browser user - I hadn’t considered more niche use cases.

                                        Sidebar: thank you for making ripgrep! I use it daily and love it.

                                        1. 1

                                          FWIW I find vim-vixen much easier to get going with than tridactyl.

                                          1. 3

                                            A brief look suggests that vim-vixen has far fewer features. Tridactyl wasn’t necessarily hard to use. It just took awhile to perfect my setup. One really nice feature it has is that I can configure it via a vim-style config file on disk that keeps everything consistent and under my control through all my workstations.

                                            1. 1

                                              I admit, I basically only use j, k, f, and / for the most part. Perhaps I don’t know what I’m missing.

                                              1. 1

                                                I don’t use too much more, but this is my config: https://gist.github.com/BurntSushi/393546a65db38d57cedcfd72c6d89bf3

                                                1. 2

                                                  We fixed set findcase smart a few days ago by the way. No-one else had mentioned it. It isn’t quite in a stable release yet but will be soon.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    Thanks! :)

                                      2. 11

                                        Enable WebRender (set gfx.webrender.enabled and gfx.webrender.all to true in about:config), restart FF and it’ll be almost as fast as Chromium in most tasks, faster in some.

                                        1. 3

                                          I switched over this morning after going back and forth between it and Chromium a few times in the past. Chromium’s UI is better, but I haven’t had any problems with rendering yet.

                                          I’d love to use https://github.com/atlas-engineer/next, but it doesn’t have uMatrix or an adblocker yet, so I’m not going to use it full time.

                                        1. 4

                                          A shame that it focused more on the hardware side of things, instead of his experiences with Plan 9.

                                          1. 2

                                            Agreed. I wanted to hear about how you set up the whole cluster, how it runs, conceptually and effectively how do login and permissions work. I never could run a plan9 correctly, protecting the access to local resources by password.

                                          1. 4

                                            Great news! I’ve been using riot and this new release seems to address some of the gripes I have with the now former client.

                                            1. 13

                                              I’ve been using keyboardio for over a year now - there’s no going back :^)

                                              1. 5

                                                I have not heard if this board. It looks a bit like an Ergodox.

                                                Could you tell me more about the board and what you like about it?

                                                1. 7

                                                  Designed by Jesse Vincent of Perl, K-9, and RT fame. You can read more about the design decisions and their journey on Kickstarter (crowdfunded, yes), and their own web pages.

                                                  To the point:

                                                  • true split keyboard, none of this one piece of plastic with a gap crap ;^)
                                                  • as already mentioned by @twm - columnar layout (why do people still make keyboards like they were typewriters!? No one learns to type on a typewriter any more!)
                                                  • built-in palm rests
                                                  • hardwood body - both pleasing to the eye, and to touch
                                                  • palm modifier keys (who would have thought!?) - no need to move hands away from the home row, I have hjkl working everywhere! :^)
                                                  • open source firmware - not just for making the LEDs doing something useful, but also create your own custom keyboard layout without doing it on each machine/OS
                                                  • uses standard CAT5e cable for connecting both halves so can have them as close, or as wide, apart as you like (very useful if you’re using it with a custom chair-mount, etc.)
                                                  • standard 1/4-20 female receptacle (i.e. as found on most cameras) on the bottom of the keyboard, so the world’s your oyster when it comes to custom mounts
                                                  • a nice travel case became available for it recently
                                                  • last but not least - it’s a true pleasure to type on! :^)
                                                  1. 5

                                                    I have the Model 01 too. The key features for me:

                                                    • Columnar layout
                                                    • Fully independent halves

                                                    I also like the built-in mouse layer. It doesn’t replace a pointing device for me, but it does reduce the frequency I have to reach for one. The default stands work well for me, but you can find more novel mounting strategies on the community forum.

                                                    It doesn’t hurt that the board looks great — between the wood case, custom sculpted keycaps, and RGB LEDs it’s gorgeous. Plus there’s a butterfly key!

                                                    The main downside is that the layout is pretty chording-oriented. That is, many common keys are on alternate layers, accessed via the Fn palm keys. For example Fn + H is ← and Fn + J is ↓. This makes combinations like Ctrl + Alt + ↓ a bit more involved than they would otherwise be. I tend to remap things to reduce chording anyway, so it’s only a minor issue.

                                                    1. 3

                                                      I also have a Model 01; for me, the best feature of it is the very easy-to-program firmware. In particular, the OneShot plugin really helps with the chording problem you mention: Instead of having to hold down multiple modifers, you can just tap (or double-tap to lock) the modifier, then tap the other key.

                                                      (you can see my layout here)

                                                  2. 1

                                                    Regarding the palm modifier keys, is it common that you press them, thereby forcing you to “hover” your hand (as seen here - left hand : http://www.xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard.io_model_01.html) ?

                                                    1. 1

                                                      No, I don’t hover my hand over the keyboard and never press the palm modifier keys unintentionally. I rest my palms on the built-in ;^) palm rests and press modifier keys only when I need to with my palm - thumb metacarpal bone and 2nd thumb joint, to be precise :^)

                                                      1. 1

                                                        thank you :)

                                                        1. 1

                                                          No worries! :^)

                                                  1. 4

                                                    While the new design looks really good, is there a reason why the contents of the ‘community’ pages differs so much? In particular the omission of IRC channels (likewise for the ‘Social’ at the bottom of the page). Is this indicative of an official shift away from IRC to Discord?

                                                    1. 4

                                                      Seeing the discord logo at the footer was probably the most saddening part of this design.

                                                      1. 2

                                                        I’m not a fan, but there’s ton of practical advantages that Discord gave us. I prefer Zulip, but they lacked crucial features when we evaluated. (Now fixed)

                                                        Also note that we only publish resources our moderation team can cover and that one is stretched thin currently.

                                                        1. 2

                                                          Not everyone on Discord is a gamer Nazi. Joining a community that’s actually filled with decent people gave me an insight into the good parts of Discord, compared to IRC and compared to Slack (granted I don’t have that much experience of Slack).

                                                          Good stuff includes:

                                                          • pinnable topics with multiple lines
                                                          • a great mobile interface
                                                          • persistent identities (not 100% if this is universal thing though)

                                                          The game-centric stuff is a bit off-putting but if it helps keep the servers running I’m fine with it.

                                                          1. 4

                                                            I don’t care about the other users on discord. I care that its a proprietary memory hog application that connects to a centralized server.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              Thanks for clarifying your viewpoint.

                                                            2. 3

                                                              Seeing people assume that the biggest problem with Rust’s adaptation of Discord is that it’s also used by “gamer Nazis” was probably the saddest part of this comment thread.

                                                              (The biggest problem with Discord is that it is a closed-source proprietary platform used as a primary means of communication for an open-source project, that the developers of that project don’t seem to have a problem with. There’s no reason in principle why it’s bad for Rust-related chat to use the same technology that gamers with politics that some people don’t like use.)

                                                              1. 2

                                                                The funny thing is that I don’t even know what “gamer Nazi” is even referencing in the context of Discord. (A Google search shows some interesting results.) To my uneducated eye, Discord is just another chat platform. I like IRC personally, but it’s a weakly held preference that probably has more to do with familiarity. Although, one of my favorite things about IRC is that I can keep logs in a plain text format and easily grep them. I use that functionality a lot. I don’t know how to do that with Discord. Nevertheless, I hang out there because other people are there, and we make sure it’s just as friendly as any other official Rust space.

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  As sad as I am to say it, the reason for most working groups (not all!) ending up on Discord is literally: it works and has mobile clients that notify properly. It’s better than Slack, exposes less personal information and actually has moderation features.

                                                            3. 2

                                                              A huge part of the community page was outdated and frequently checking it became unfeasible. This includes a lot of the IRC channels. With Mozillas IRC channel becoming more and more a target for spammers and such, there is also a move away from them, especially for project members. You can chat there, but there is a high likeliness that you can’t interact with the project if you want. It’s indicative of a practical shift. By policy, the Rust project does not enforce any place to chat.

                                                              Also, the old style of the community page was great for a young community. We could literally show everything on there. Paradoxically, that becomes unfeasible when the community grows. A lot of things have moved to other places.

                                                              We felt that a lot of the things now present on the page were not well presented before. For example, conferences were not well presented.

                                                              Is there anything you absolutely miss from the old page?

                                                              1. 3

                                                                Hello, there is not something that I miss per se, but I just found it interesting that the contents differed so much - thank you for your clarification on that.

                                                                I was not aware of the shift towards Discord. It came as bit of a shock, and while I understand that this is not the correct place to further the discussion, I must confess to be a bit saddened by it (especially with open source alternatives).

                                                                Regardless, congratulations once again on the new design!

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  I’m fine with having that discussion, but the short version is: we evaluated a lot of chats and they ranged from functionally broken to lacking features that we need (most notably: moderation). For example, when we evaluated it, Zulip had some very glaring flaws making it hard to use for open projects. (Zulip fixed those in 1.9)

                                                                  Discord fares surprisingly well there. I’m not happy with the state, but there’s almost no good FOSS tools with a thought through moderations story that work well.

                                                                  I have a very rough writeup of our experiences there: https://yakshav.es/from-the-rider-down/

                                                              2. 1

                                                                It’s already been discussed to death. And the answer is: yes, there is an official shift from IRC to Discord. irc.mozilla.org#rust is probably never going away, but having built-in logging and persistence is a big enough deal to recommend it as the default.

                                                                1. 2

                                                                  Matrix/Riot also does these things. Over the last year they have made it a whole lot faster as well.

                                                              1. 2

                                                                Hello, I’m https://mastodon.social/@tse (not tooting a lot)