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    Is IMAP considered the “cleanest” implementation of email possible?

    1. 3

      No, but JMAP probably is.

      IMAP is like a filesystem with poor performance and doesn’t allow batching of commands

      1. 1

        FWIW IMAP also seems to have its own host of layers of cruft

      1. 3

        James Mickens has a bunch of hilarious talks.

        Eric Meyer’s Designing for Crisis was an interesting view of how cognition and UI interact.

        1. 3

          I’ve always wondered if web applications would eventually move towards something like this. It seems like making an application like a DAW is quite different from designing and laying out a blog, but with the modern web we build both using the same toolkits.

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            I use http://qutebrowser.org on my NixOS machines but it doesn’t run on other platforms. What alternative browsers are there for Mac OS?

            edit: I’m wrong about this! https://lobste.rs/s/biqv7l/update_on_pocket_firefox_integration#c_3c8u5d

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              Are you saying you’d stop using Firefox because of default “sponsored content” in New Tab?

              It’s pretty easy to turn that off, just like all the other New Tab content. The article even links detailed instructions.

              Or is it a matter of principle for you? How do you suppose Mozilla should make money?

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                It is not “sponsored content” - that concept does not exist in Firefox. Nobody is paying Mozilla to show specific content on New Tab.

                1. 3

                  I already didn’t use Firefox, but I also don’t think browsers should have ads or be monetized.

                  1. 2

                    There are no ads in Firefox. Why did you think there are?

                    1. 4

                      There absolutely are—or were until fairly recently—ads in unfilled tiles on the new tab page. Here’s an example support forum thread asking how to get rid of them.

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                        That was two years ago and that feature was completely dropped.

                  2. 2

                    How do you suppose Mozilla should make money?

                    Should Mozilla make money? Should one of the most important applications in modern-day computing be produced by a company that is incentivized to produce a profit?

                    1. 6

                      Mozilla corp is not incentivized to produce a profit, it is quite openly their goal to “just” keep the lights on. But that already needs quite a bit of cash. That’s a huge difference.

                      Mozilla corp is for-profit, as for certain legal reasons, producing software is not 501(c)3 compatible. It’s a very usual setup.

                      Yes, Mozilla should make money. Otherwise, they’d shut down.

                      1. 2

                        Mozilla is a non-profit, so no, they don’t have to make money. But the people who work for Mozilla don’t work for free. You can’t build a product like Firefox purely on volunteers, so Mozilla should at least be able to pay their workforce.

                        They can’t keep up with the rest of the world and provide a quality, free software alternative browser without money.

                        If you think the work Mozilla does is valuable (I do!) and feel like they should stay away from alternative monetization methods (I do!), you should consider donating to Mozilla so that they don’t have to find other ways of funding development.

                    2. 3

                      Does it have to be libre? If not, Vivaldi is an excellent web browser that believes in making easy things easy and customization easy. It’s the spiritual successor to Opera 12, which was the pinnacle of browser experiences.

                      1. 3

                        what do you mean? they even have prebuilt images for all major platforms. On MacOS, you can install it from Homebrew as well (brew cask install qutebrowser).

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                          What do you do about plugins? I miss a few plugins from Chrome when I tried out qutebrowser, primarily my RSS feed monitoring one as well as my usenet one.

                          The other big one I miss is Join, but that’s sort of a separate thing in terms of how “encompassing” it is.

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                            I just installed qutebrowser too. That is just brilliant. Thanks for linking - I remember stories coming about it before but never made the effort to try it out, but now I can see it becoming pretty regular.

                          1. 2

                            GG Flip is a Golang library which generates the Javascript sign flip library. I preferred Go because lack of generics seemed like a good design choice.

                            satire tag?

                            1. 2

                              Spoils. av does not want to add that tag.

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                              Let’s see. The reasons have to do with Τεχ, with those character encodings that were used before utf8 took over, because it’s difficult to find on an unfamiliar keyboard, because of something to do with Spanish and Portuguese, and because people misprint it. Right? That’s a fair summary?

                              I don’t see any point in using tilde. Home directories on multuuser servers have disappeared.

                              But those are hilariously weak reasons to stop. Τεχ is dead, so are those character encodings, most typing is done on familiar keyboards, if I were to stop doing things because they’re difficult in some other language (even just ones I’ve half-learned for a vacation) I’d have to change both my first and last name, and as for misprints the tilde is a minor detail. Many pages today have more difficult URLs. The URL of the page you’re reading includes the character sequence “dlk8d1” and orgies of “…?…=…&q=…” are normal.

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                                Τεχ is dead

                                … what?

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                                  Home directories on multuuser servers have disappeared.

                                  The first one has been around for a while, while the last two are sort of new and are attempts of taking the Internet back…

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                                    Home directories on multuuser servers have disappeared.

                                    IME many university/college sites use this. FWIW my university uses this for course sites (e.g. http://___.ca/~csXXX/)

                                  1. 17

                                    I love the smell of outrage in the morning. Or afternoon. Whichever.

                                    I like Firefox. I’m not terribly concerned about this. A sure way to get them to stop is to donate monthly.

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                                      How much? How much would it cost to stop this, over and above Mozilla’s existing income? Why doesn’t Mozilla, as a user first organization, tell its users “we need this much money or we’re going to add the looking glass extension”?

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                                        Oh, yes, a 1000 times this! I’d happily pay for Firefox more than I pay for every single web service I use.

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                                          It would cost an infinite amount, because that’s the amount companies need to aim to earn in a capitalist economy.

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                                            It’s a non-profit.

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                                              Even non-profits have expenses to cover. Over infinite time these approach infinity as well.

                                              The point still stands that them having a transparent budget would make it easier for us the users to “pay off” these kinds of threats.

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                                                The mozilla corporation (a branch of the mozilla non-profit Foundation) is for-profit.

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                                                  Only legally. It’s “keep the lights on”.

                                                  The problem is that software development and the services the corp provides is not considered non-profit under most jurisdictions.

                                                  This setup (a foundation and a corporation) is straight from the playbook for non-profits that have substantial non-eligible parts.

                                          2. 4

                                            A sure way to get them to stop is to donate monthly.

                                            They made $360,000,000 last year: https://www.ghacks.net/2017/12/02/mozillas-revenue-increased-significantly-in-2016/

                                            Why would you want to throw more money at the corporation who’s pissing on you while telling you that it’s raining?

                                            1. 8

                                              When you are donating to Mozilla, you are donating to the Foundation, which is not involved much in Firefox, but in a lot of other tech and policy advocacy things. This includes net neutrality lobbying, discussing the copyright reform in Europe and support many many tech teaching projects all over the globe.

                                              You’d be hurting all those projects instead of Firefox development over your anger with the product.

                                              Making your anger known in a different fashion will have more impact.

                                              (FWIW: I don’t want to keep you from stopping to donate if you don’t feel like Mozilla Foundation is not following their mission anymore)

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                                                Regrettably, the net neutrality thing didn’t pan out, I’m not sure about the copyright work, and the educational stuff is probably better left to local efforts (if my own experience is to be believed).

                                                I’d rather they focus on Firefox, Thunderbird, and documentation and free up people and resources to go do other things.

                                                1. 6

                                                  Regrettably, the net neutrality thing didn’t pan out, I’m not sure about the copyright work, and the educational stuff is probably better left to local efforts (if my own experience is to be believed).

                                                  Policy is no “put enough money here, it’ll work” game. The debate about net neutrality has been going back and forth in the recent years and Mozilla has always been involved. Losing Mozilla as a campaigner there would not be helpful in any way.

                                                  The educational stuff is probably better left to local efforts (if my own experience is to be believed).

                                                  This is obviously very personal, but in my experience, Mozilla has reach to a lot of people and other groups that other tech groups can only dream of. I would highly recommend looking at who’s around at MozFest. Also, the Foundation does a lot of these things through co-operations like with the Ford Foundation, which are usually quite productive and the output brings a lot of worthwhile reading.

                                                  I’d rather they focus on Firefox, Thunderbird, and documentation and free up people and resources to go do other things.

                                                  Thunderbird obviously left out, Mozilla Corporation has most employees on precisely these products. It is their focus.

                                                  The Corp is just not the Foundation and merging them also makes no sense, IMHO.

                                            2. 2

                                              Or use a fork if all else fails. Sad day if it comes to that, after all the good work otherwise gone into Firefox.

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                                              I’ve been experimenting with Gopher for the last few weeks (mainly after having discovered gopher://bitreich.org), and while it does offer quite an interestig form of serving and organizing content, it’s exactly the overall lak of content that’s a bit disappointing. And it’s quite understandable too, for most people, gopher offers no upsides besides a wierd design. I remember people saying the don’t use the internet, they just use facebook - try convincing someone who belives this to adopt a 30 year old protocol (a what?) without pretty animations or an interactive layout.

                                              And I don’t mean this in a pejorative way, looking down at the “normies” for not understanding the enlightened way of using esoteric web protocols. It’s just that without a certain network effect, media just won’t gain traction, and what’s the point of it then? People usually don’t use the internet just for it’s own sake, but want an experience, to learn something or to buy something (something I’d most certainly not want to use gopher for in it’s current state).

                                              Maybe we need something between the freedom of http/html+css+(js) and the prestructured limitations of gopher that prevent the protocol from being perverted and misused. I have been playing with the idea of limited subset of html+css taking such a place, without many of the particularities of official html or css, with which anyone should be familiar with if they’ve ever programmed for the web, without extensive use of frameworks. And if gopher were to use this hypothetical subset, then we certainly would need need clients (eg. maybe we don’t need a android client supporting all versions from 0.2 and beyond).

                                              As a final note, I’d like to remind people to not belive “oh, the web would have been so much better if only gopher had won over http/html. I’m fairly sure that the web would still be pleasant and rather simole experience, if it were to be used the way it was intended to be (as a hyper text network). But as we all know, that’s not the case, for multiple reasons, but I primarily belive it was because the web had a potential beyond it’s intention. Games, shopping, social networking or interactivity in general had to be skewed into the already establish standards, to not harm backwards compatibility, resulting in a bigger and bigger mess over time. Furthermore browsers and servers, in competition with one another break rules and extended the standard (as is to be expected), this time not because of it’s potential but it’s impotence. Gopher, had it had it had the inertia at the time, would have probably have falled victim of a similar, but of course different fate, depending on what people would have done, wanted to do and had been able to do with it. And eventually we’d have people writing about how great that esoteric but sadly underused protocol called “http” just is.

                                              1. 1

                                                I remember people saying the don’t use the internet, they just use facebook - try convincing someone who belives this to adopt a 30 year old protocol (a what?) without pretty animations or an interactive layout.

                                                I think the average person might find something like gopher attractive if you compared it to Google’s AMP pages. Of course, not many people would understand if you just asked them about “AMP”, but I’m sure they’d understand if you asked them about those news articles on Google that have a little lightning icon next to them and load really fast and don’t have any junk on them.

                                                That said, if we serve HTML over Gopher then I don’t think there’d be much difference between modern web sites and this new gopher, besides menu-based navigation that is built into the browser. Dunno if that’d appeal to people. Maybe if there was a standard way of adding metadata (images, descriptions etc) to listings then browsers could display them in a nice-looking, fast interface.

                                                Gopher, had it had it had the inertia at the time, would have probably have falled victim of a similar, but of course different fate, depending on what people would have done, wanted to do and had been able to do with it.

                                                Good point. Right after browsers implemented the hypothetical listing metadata standard I talked about above, someone would’ve implemented an extension that allowed animated images, or themable menu entries, or <marquee>, etc.

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                                                  I think one thing to think about is that users don’t actually want web apps. They use web apps because that’s what’s available. Developers make web apps because that’s a target that works on every device.

                                                  But what users want is things that make them feel good. They don’t particularly care how that thing is delivered, so long as they don’t have to work too hard. That’s the second thing users want: the opportunity to be lazy. In other words, users remain human beings, and want the exact same things every other human wants.

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                                                It doesn’t allow people to customize the UI or turn off tracking does it?

                                                1. 2

                                                  Fwiw you can rearrange the ui elements in the browser and write custom CSS to style it if you really want to get deep into things.

                                                  As for manually injecting elements into the XUL interface, AFAIK your only option is using an addon to hook into the webextensions api.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    My understanding is that there is no more XUL interface, or at least that they’re removing access to it with the intent to remove it entirely soon.

                                                    1. 2

                                                      The chrome is still XUL - try debugging the browser with the browser toolbox and you’ll see the XUL elements that make up UI components. afaict they’re just removing the capability for extensions to modify the ui directly.

                                                    2. 1

                                                      Related to this, do you know of a way (using custom CSS) to move the tab bar to the bottom of the window? That’s the feature I’d miss the most from Vivaldi/Opera/older Firefoxes…

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                                                    This reminds me a lot of xonsh - https://github.com/xonsh/xonsh

                                                    1. 4
                                                      1. 2

                                                        What a lovely name!

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                                                          I have always loved the idea of lisp, but have never managed to actually do anything useful with it. The closest I’ve come is with Clojure. I suspect if I ever build a project that lends itself at all to that class of language I shall enjoy it immensely :)

                                                      1. 2

                                                        … is anyone really doing that?

                                                        Stop teaching other people to do this.

                                                        If this actually happens in real life then yes, stop doing that.

                                                        If you are deploying from git at all you obviously have some specific commit that is the thing you want to deploy. You don’t want deployment to be something that is almost what you asked for.

                                                        1. 3

                                                          I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people were under the assumption that pull just downloads and checks out a branch – after all, this is what many people use it for during development.

                                                          1. 2

                                                            People do really do this. If you ever get bored, search for files named .git on Google; you’ll find a reasonable number of sites that not only use Git to deploy, but that accidentally vend the .git used as world-readable.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              Isn’t it nice that you can just git-clone them? 😉

                                                              edit: Ok, git clone seems not enough. Need to wget-mirror the .git directory, then git-checkout.

                                                              Here is a google search to find them.

                                                              1. 1

                                                                I think you need to run git update-index on a repo to make it http-clonable.

                                                            2. 1

                                                              Hi, yes.

                                                              I’m still doing that on a unsupported business app somewhere. It hasn’t gotten any updates in month (probably shutdown too) but it’s deployed by doing a git pull from remote and recompiling manually.

                                                              Quite horrible indeed.

                                                            1. [Comment removed by moderator pushcx: don't make "hate posts"]

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                                                                And Direct3D. But for an electron app it really is minimal: only 145.3 MiB on disk.

                                                                1. 5

                                                                  A “minimal X app” generally means an app with a simple and straightforward interface, not an app that fits in 64kb.

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                                                                    I mean, you sort of need a browser to render markdown.

                                                                    1. 3

                                                                      Isn’t the point of markdown the ability to see ‘formatted’ text without rendering it as HTML? I’ve never really understood the value of these markdown editors, given that the most complex thing in MD seems to be lists

                                                                      1. 4

                                                                        What makes you think you need a browser for simple text formatting?

                                                                        1. 8

                                                                          Markdown has full support for inline HTML.

                                                                          It’s even so central to the language that it’s literally the second section in the original markdown document

                                                                          1. 3

                                                                            Never saw this, but I guess that comes from all the different markdown flavors.

                                                                            But ok, use electron for this and call it minimal, I don’t have to care if I don’t use it.

                                                                            Edit: But using some webkit view from gtk or qt would make it less of a problem for me as someone who packages software for a linux distribution. Packaging electron apps is just not feasible because we need patches for it to support musl libc and building it over and over again for each electron app is just wrong.

                                                                            1. 4

                                                                              I find your comment particularly infuriating.

                                                                              Your original post was a lowbrow dismissal of someone’s work couched with irony to provide plausible deniability. Even then, you knew it wasn’t the right thing to do.

                                                                              You then showed that you hadn’t even bothered to understand the field before dismissing the project.

                                                                              You then did another lowbrow dismissal comment, but then followed it up with an edit, in which you suggested:

                                                                              1. the developer take a hard dependency and rewrite their entire software in one of two perennially buggy, flaky, fast-moving and platform-locked desktop linux frameworks, just because it would make your life as a linux software packager easier

                                                                              2. it’s impossible to package electron apps because you have to do work to compile it and that makes you sad

                                                                              I’m trying to imagine scenarios under which you could express more entitlement or lack of respect for people who actually do work, but they’re not coming to me. Additionally, if the job of packaging software is too hard for you, maybe stop doing it.

                                                                              1. 6

                                                                                After your edit this is a much more informative post than your top level one dissing the project. Perhaps you could lead with something more like this next time?

                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                  To my understanding, though, there’s no good quick solution to package GTK and QT applications to OS X/Windows, which - to my understanding - is one of the main reasons people pick electron?

                                                                                  1. 1

                                                                                    Edit: But using some webkit view from gtk or qt would make it less of a problem for me

                                                                                    I maintain the OpenBSD port for ghostwriter, it’s pretty minimalistic and uses qt5 webkit view.

                                                                                2. 2

                                                                                  There are much nicer ways to make a technical point than this. Please use one of them in the future.

                                                                            1. 3

                                                                              It doesn’t. Isn’t tab presentational? Like the way you may style the beginning of a paragraph? That’s all part of the style given by CSS. For tabular data on the other hand you have tables, and PRE for pre-formatted text.

                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                I think they mean tabs as in layout/windowing, not spaces.

                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                  I was confused too. First I thought of tabs, as in \x09, the thing that shouldn’t be used when indenting source code. Then I thought of things that can be reached and navigated through when the TAB key is pressed, i.e., using tabindex, but finally realized this is about tabs to switch between windows (as in tabbed browsing)

                                                                                1. 2

                                                                                  $295 for just the design seems like a pretty steep price…especially when you can get existing feature phones for $30ish. Granted, there’s no warranty on the one I linked but I’m sure you can find equivalents with warranty for cheap.

                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                    I like this so far. Still getting used to it, but I think it works well for me.

                                                                                    A few comments:

                                                                                    • I like the scroll amount. I’ve never really thought about this before, but it fits nicely in between what you get by scrolling with arrow keys (too little) and what you get with pgup/pgdown (too much).
                                                                                    • I remapped scroll-up/down from kl to kj to match my vim muscle memory, though. Being one key shifted over, and with the up/down order swapped, was confusingly similar-yet-not for me.
                                                                                    • I disabled j; to switch tabs. This seems to break for me too often when I want to switch more than one tab to the left/right. I’ll try hitting ;; to go two right, but the intermediate tab will end up focusing a textarea (on lobste.rs, for example) so I’ll end up just typing ; into the textarea. I’ve already gotten used to using ctrl+tab and ctrl+shift+tab for keyboard tab switching, so I’ll just keep doing that I think, trading off the emacs-esque modifier key contortions for more reliably out-of-band signalling.
                                                                                    • The “blobs” system for clicking links is weird, but I’m finding it nice to use. Is this an existing approach to keyboard navigation of links? I haven’t run into it before. Textmode browsers like lynx and links use either arrow-scrolling through links, or numbered links instead, but this seems quite a bit faster for pages with many links.
                                                                                    1. 3

                                                                                      Is this an existing approach to keyboard navigation of links?

                                                                                      I believe this is what vimperator/pentadactyl/uzbl use

                                                                                    1. 2

                                                                                      Did this end up being the correct URL?

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        Maybe the URL got scrambled.

                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                          URL should be:

                                                                                          https://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/people/matt.davis/cmabridge/

                                                                                          No idea what happened. Mods? :(

                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                        Perhaps a network activity log for the IG app would help confirm this.

                                                                                        1. 1

                                                                                          I would be surprised if you can pull even transferred packet counts off an iPhone.

                                                                                          Can you? Does anyone monitor that?

                                                                                          1. 9

                                                                                            No need to rely on the phone. Connect to wifi, run tcpdump on router. Read the dictionary aloud until a matching ad appears.

                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                              If Instagram uses TLS, you’ll need to jailbreak the phone, install your own ca, issue certs for Instagram/Facebook, and mitm the encrypted traffic.

                                                                                              1. 3

                                                                                                Sure, to be able to see the actual data. But even without decrypting, it would be meaningful to see that traffic is going to Instagram servers when the phone is locked.

                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                  Don’t most apps from big companies use certificate pinning ?

                                                                                              2. 1

                                                                                                Doubt you can do it without jailbreaking, but you should be able to at least pipe everything through Charles and get a sense of network activity from there.

                                                                                            1. 1

                                                                                              What is “Google Play Protect” introduced in this version? Does it mean Google Play became more closed and more like Apple’s App Store? Or that users using custom firmwares will have more troubles?

                                                                                              1. 1

                                                                                                Looks like it’s some form of antimalware:

                                                                                                Google Play Protect checks apps when you download them. It also periodically scans your device. If it finds a potentially harmful app, it stops the app from running, and may:

                                                                                                • Warn you. If an app is detected that may be harmful to your device, you’ll get a notification. To remove the app, tap Uninstall on the notification.
                                                                                                • Remove the app automatically. In some cases, if a harmful app has been detected, you may get a notification saying the app was removed.
                                                                                                1. 1

                                                                                                  It strongly resembles an antivirus system, which I suppose is designed to substitute for some kind of quality control.

                                                                                                1. 5

                                                                                                  While it’s amazingly fast, the inability to run nearly all existing plugins makes it unworkable for me.

                                                                                                  1. 4

                                                                                                    Out of curiosity what plugins do you use that are not compatible with Web Extensions?

                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                      For me, it’s gotta be fxgestures. Every gesture extension that I’ve tried on chrome doesn’t run on new tab/error pages nor do they run properly when viewing PDFs using the built in reader. Also IIRC sites like Twitter mess with the extensions styling somehow.

                                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                                        For me, the major plugins I’ll lose is self-destructing cookies (SDC), firegestures, tree-style tabs, and vimfx. I know that the VimFX author has referred folks to vimium, and there look to be webex alternatives to SDC. However, the webex APIs available at this time don’t appear to allow for modifying the browser in order for tree-style tabs or firegestures to be possible.

                                                                                                        1. 2

                                                                                                          Tree style tabs have similar extensions available now https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-tabs/ , and it itself will be able to move to them at some point https://github.com/piroor/treestyletab/issues/1224

                                                                                                    1. 4

                                                                                                      Side note: is it just me or is the font really hard to read?

                                                                                                      1. 3

                                                                                                        It uses Helvetica, which on my system matches (fc-match Helvetica) to a bitmap font that looks bad.

                                                                                                        1. 5

                                                                                                          Welcome to the suck that is font config. But not to worry. It’s all open source. And there’s a config file. You can fix it yourself!

                                                                                                        2. 2

                                                                                                          Not just you. It’s too light, both in weight and in colour, I think, so almost impossible to read on my phone. I gave up.

                                                                                                          1. 1

                                                                                                            looks fine here.