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    Scrolling with the mouse wheel in KDE’s volume mixer applet scrolls through both devices and levels of devices.

    I wonder what’s the good way to solve that one on the UI level. I really like that KDE allows you to scroll both on the volume bars and on the volume icon itself. (Which other systems don’t do)

    I guess at least “don’t change volume until position scrolling has finished” check could work… But that may feel as clunky as the typing-timeout-based touchpad disabling.

    I like the list and the challenge. I’m sure it will cause more pressure on some long-standing papercut issues. Apart from some really frustrating parts where Linus knows just enough to overcomplicate things and self-sabotage (like the GitHub part), it’s a fun UX study. I’ve had to start using Windows recently for the first time since w2k and I’m making my own list of WTF issues.

    1.  

      I need to go back and double check what his issue was, but maybe a modifier key (ctrl perhaps) or a middle mouse click to switch between the two options?

      1.  

        It’s basically: if you scroll the list of volume and your mouse goes over a volume slider, you’ll start scroll-adjusting that volume slider instead. You learn to scroll with the mouse on the side of the window quickly.

        https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385270

      2.  

        I really like that KDE allows you to scroll both on the volume bars and on the volume icon itself. (Which other systems don’t do)

        yes, this is something that I really miss on Windows. to whoever thought of adding this feature to KDE – thank you!

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        for me, the #1 fish feature is the fact that I can get a nice shell with all these features out of the box! I’m sure you can get something similar with oh-my-zsh or another package, but on my machines I just apt install fish and I’m done.

        1. 3

          Is this Linux? The website doesn’t seem to have any substantive documentation

          1. 5

            I get the impression that Elementary’s view of itself is that it’s Linux in the same way macOS is BSD.

            1. 7

              It’s literally just Ubuntu with a different window manager and some first party apps. The previous release was built on 18.04 LTS and the new one 20.04 LTS. You can even run lsb_release -a

              1. 4

                Hence why I said “view of itself” and not “is actually.” :)

                1. 2

                  Not disagreeing with you; just providing context on why that’s a ridiculous view.

              2. 1

                I’d be interested reading more about that without having to read the source as the very first step

              3. 5

                Elementary OS is based on Debian/Ubuntu Linux.

                1. 1

                  Our platform itself is entirely open source, and it’s built upon a strong foundation of Free & Open Source software (like GNU/Linux). Plus, we actively collaborate within the ecosystem to improve it for everyone.

                  on the homepage: https://elementary.io/

                  1. 1

                    Right but it’s all puff. I can’t find any technical documentation

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                1. 6

                  Huh, good read. Could apply to Muslim Driven Design too! Islam has a pretty similar system: the Qur’an, which is the unchanging literal Word of God, and the Hadith (sayings), which are collected religious instructions or examples over the centuries.

                  1. 1

                    They’re nothing alike. Muslim scholars until today are willing to go back to the source materials (Quran and Hadith) and revisit decisions that were previously made one way or the other in the centuries since.

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                      Maybe that is not the same. But I strongly disagree at the “they’re nothing alike” statement.

                      1. 4

                        That actually makes the domain even more complex.

                        1. 4

                          Orthodox Judaism is much less interested in “playing the game” of halacha than Conservative and Reform Judaism, but despite the name, Orthodox Judaism is A) younger than Reform and B) much smaller. But because it is the strictest, it gets most of the attention, because if they’re satisfied everyone else is too. For the most part.

                          1. 2

                            Rereading my other comment below I think I may have forgotten to make my point, which is that at the 30,000 foot view, Judaism and Islam are doing something similar with sharia and halacha. As you get down into the details of specific movements or branches the analogy might break down.

                          2. 1

                            Holidays which are free floating around the gregorian calendar…

                            1. 1

                              Like the Christian Easter?

                              1. 2

                                Easter is always in March/April/May. The Muslim calendar doesn’t have leap years, and is lunar. Ramadaan moves quite dramatically through the seasons.

                                1. 2

                                  It’s all a question of perspective.

                                  The start of the month of Ramadan is between 10 and 12 days before the date of the previous year.

                                  The date of Easter Sunday varies wildly from year to year:

                                  Date		DoY	Diff
                                  2010-04-04	94	
                                  2011-04-24	114	 20
                                  2012-04-08	99	-15
                                  2013-03-31	90	 -9
                                  2014-04-20	110	 20
                                  2015-04-05	95	-15
                                  2016-03-27	87	 -8
                                  2017-04-16	106	 19
                                  2018-04-01	91	-15
                                  2019-04-21	111	 20
                                  2020-04-12	103	 -8
                                  2021-04-04	94	 -9
                                  

                                  (not surprising since the formula for Easter (Gauss’ formulation of the ancient Computus) has mods all over the place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_Easter#Gauss's_Easter_algorithm)

                                  It’s true that under most jurisdictions, one cannot predict the start of the month of Ramadan in advance - it has to be observed directly. But from a year to year planning, it’s quite predictable.

                                  1. 7

                                    It’s true that under most jurisdictions, one cannot predict the start of the month of Ramadan in advance - it has to be observed directly.

                                    as a (kind-of, not really) Muslim this also opens up an interesting can of worms, since we have the technology/math to predict the moon’s location:

                                    • if a new moon is predicted to be on date X, does that mean Ramadan should start on that day?
                                    • if my neighbours the next town over see the moon but I can’t because of clouds, should I follow their mosque’s proclamation or mine?
                                    • does the sighting have to be with the naked eye? are telescopes okay? what about sightings in really dark places, where the moon is more visible?
                                    • multiply all of the above by Should you follow proclamations by mosques in Mecca, or follow your local mosque instead? What if my local mosque uses telescopes but sightings in Mecca were done by the naked eye? etc…

                                    It’s not uncommon (at least in my circle) for families to start Ramadan on different days depending on who they follow.

                          1. 6

                            Something something we’re the real meta-GANs.

                            1. 3

                              everything is supervised learning eventually

                              1. 3

                                Sometimes late at night I look deeply into my own eyes in the mirror. And sometimes.. just sometimes, my pupils aren’t regular. O_o

                                1. 2

                                  the jig is up, please submit yourself to the GPU cluster for retraining!

                              1. 17

                                Personally, I’m excited about the “melting face” emoji, as well as a few of the new gender and skin color variants that will piss off chuds. Also, the Emoji block of Unicode now has not one, but two amulets against the evil eye, which I expect will be extremely valuable for social media.

                                1. 6

                                  I’m torn between “melting face” and “dotted line face”, I think they’ll replace my usage of 🙃going forwards.

                                  1. 5

                                    The emoji thing is so totally irresponsible. Humanity is never going to replace Unicode. We’re stuck with it until we either go extinct or go Luddite. Adding emoji based on whims is how you end up with things like this sticking around for four thousand years and counting. The Egyptians at least had the excuse that they didn’t know what computers were.

                                    1. 11

                                      I actually have that one saved in my favorites in UnicodePad for Android. Of course, the modern spelling would be 🍆💦.

                                      1. 10

                                        Adding emoji based on whims is how you end up with things like this sticking around for four thousand years and counting. The Egyptians at least had the excuse that they didn’t know what computers were.

                                        Not sure what the problem is? Ancient Egyptians living thousands of years ago didn’t share your particular cultural taboos and sensitivities, which seems like an entirely valid “excuse” to me.

                                        1. 2

                                          Right, there’s nothing that the Egyptians were doing “wrong”, because when they decided to use a penis as a letter, they had no way of knowing that for the remainder of human civilization we will have to use the penis as a letter, whether it’s culturally taboo or cool or we replace men with artificial sex bots or whatever. We however do know that Unicode is forever, and so the bar to adding a new character should be really fucking high. Like, here is an alphabet that was already in use by a non-trivial amount of people for some length of time. Not, it would be cool to make a new kind of smiley face.

                                          A better system would be to do what is already done with flags. For flags, the flag 🇺🇸 is just

                                          U+1F1FA 🇺       REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER U
                                          U+1F1F8 🇸       REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER S
                                          

                                          We could do the same thing for other ephemera, and not have to burden Unicode with an open ended and endless list of foods that were popular with the Unicode committee in the 21st century.

                                          1. 10

                                            We don’t “have to use the penis as a letter” because it exists in Unicode. It’s just that it is technically representable. I’ll admit there’s nuance here - there are probably some things I’d rather see us avoid in Unicode, i.e. violence. But I’m struggling to see the harm caused in this particular case.

                                            1. 5

                                              Who’s to say that the United States will still be around in 4,000, 1,000, or 200 years? Or that the “US” code won’t be recycled for some other country? Hell, why should our current ISO system of labelling countries even persist? Once you start talking about these kind of timeframes anything is up for grabs really.

                                              “Forever” is a heck of a long time. I don’t think we’re stuck with Unicode for all eternity, there’s all sorts of ways/scenarios we could come up with something new. I think we should just address the issues of the day; there’s no way what the future will be like anyway; all we can do is focus on the foreseeable future.

                                              1. 3

                                                I just imagined some kind of a Unicode successor system that would have a “compatibility” block with 200k+ slots and groaned.

                                                1. 1

                                                  That’s the whole point. US won’t mean 🇺🇸 forever. It will naturally change over time and when it does, the old codes will still be decipherable (flag for something called “US”) without needing to be supported anymore.

                                                  Tbh, the most likely a scenario is a RoC, PRC thing where two countries claim to be the US, and then the international community will have to pick sides. Anyway, still better than having the flag as a real emoji!

                                                  1. 2

                                                    I don’t really follow how one scheme is more advantageous over the over; at the end of the day you’re still going have to map some “magic number” to some specific meaning. I suppose you could spell out “happy” or “fireman” in special codepoints, but that just seems the same as mapping specific codepoints to those meaning, but with extra steps (although “fireman” already consists of two codepoints: “man” + “fire engine”, or “person” and “women” for other gender variants).

                                                    The reason it’s done with flags probably has more to do that it’s just easier.

                                                    1. 1

                                                      It’s not just that it’s easier it’s that obsolescence is a built in concept. New countries come and old countries go and ISO adds and removed country codes. Using Slack and GitHub style :name: emojis mean that you can add and drop support for specific emoji without needing to just serve up a �. It is also more forward compatible. When your friend on a new phone texts you :dotted smiley: you won’t just see �, you’ll see words that describe what is missing. Plus you aren’t using up a finite resource.

                                                      1. 3

                                                        Plus you aren’t using up a finite resource.

                                                        TIL integers are a finite resource.

                                                        1. 2

                                                          To be fair, I’ll be the first to grab popcorn when they announce that everyone and their toaster now has to adopt utf8 with 1-5 bytes. Will probably be as smooth and fast as our ipv4 to ipv6 migration.

                                                        2. 1

                                                          When your friend on a new phone texts you :dotted smiley: you won’t just see �

                                                          Right, that would be useful.

                                                          Changing the meaning of specific codepoints or sequences of codepoints over time just seems like a recipe for confusion. “Oh, this 300 year old document renders as such-and-such, but actually, back then it meant something different from today” is not really something that I think will help anyone.

                                                          This already exists to some degree; e.g. “Ye olde tarvern” where “Y” is supposed to represent a capital Thorn, which is pronounced as “th”, not as Y (written as þ today, but written quite similar to Y in old-fashioned cursive writing, and early German printing presses didn’t have a Thorn on account of that letter not existing in German so people used Y as a substitute). In this case it’s a small issue of pronunciation, but if things really shift meaning things could become a lot more apt to misunderstandings in meaning.

                                                          1. 1

                                                            Emoji have already shifted in ways that change their meaning. The gun emoji has become a ray gun due to political correctness and sometimes points left and sometimes right. Shoot me → zap you. The grimace 😬 was a different emotion on Android and iOS for a while. There are other documented examples of this kind of semantic shift in just a short amount of time. I think it’s a bit hopeless to try to pin them down while you keep adding stuff. The use of eggplant and peach for penis and butt is based on their specific portrayal and subject to the visual similarity being lost if they redraw them in different ways. What if President Xi demands a less sexy 🍑? Will it stick around or be a bit of passing vulgar slang from the early twentieth century? Impossible to predict.

                                              2. 4

                                                Why can’t we have a little fun? What is the problem you are seeing with this?

                                                1. 3

                                                  Your body shame is a culturally specific artifact and hardly a universal experience.

                                                  1. 1

                                                    You’re missing the point. I’m not ashamed of weiners. They are hilarious. The point is that a character can be taboo or not and we’re still stuck with it.

                                                    1. 2

                                                      If it’s not something to be ashamed of, is it really taboo enough to exclude from the Unicode standard? And furthermore, why is being stuck with it an issue? It can even be valuable from an anthropological standpoint.

                                                  2. 1

                                                    Just because a standard exists doesn’t mean we have to use all of it all the time.

                                                    Or should the ASCII maintainers be embarrassed that their standard contains Vertical Tab?

                                                    1. 2

                                                      My dude, Unicode inherited vertical tab from ASCII. That’s my point. Things are only going to continue to accumulate for now until the collapse of civilization. It will never shrink.

                                                1. 1

                                                  The title is a little underwhelming, but I thought it was cool to get an intro on how to use the JDK disassembly tools.

                                                  1. 7

                                                    Moving back to a print-like publication-format in PDF has good reasons and is interesting, but goes too far in my opinion.

                                                    I think the best approach is to make a static website with very light JavaScript on top (no AJAX). It’s also very well-archivable and easier to access than a PDF, which still involves a file-download and is impractical for content that changes often.

                                                    1. 13

                                                      I was interpreting it as heavy-handed sarcasm. If they’re really serious about switching to PDF, I guess I’ll just have to file it under the growing Hairshirt Computing movement. Is there a good PDF reader for CP/M?

                                                      1. 2

                                                        I think the best approach is to make a static website with very light JavaScript on top (no AJAX). It’s also very well-archivable and easier to access than a PDF, which still involves a file-download and is impractical for content that changes often.

                                                        for example, this page seems to archive pretty well. file > save creates an HTML file and a sidecar directory with images and CSS/script files. you could inline everything into the HTML if you really wanted everything to be one file, at the expense of load time.

                                                        1. 4

                                                          you could inline everything into the HTML if you really wanted everything to be one file, at the expense of load time.

                                                          It’s sad that browsers don’t do that by default. Having to carry around a .htm file and a folder of assets is a bit cumbersome.

                                                          1. 5

                                                            Safari’s had the “web archive” file format forever. Dunno why other browsers don’t do something similar; just create a zip archive of HTML + assets.

                                                            1. 5

                                                              The concept is much older than Safari: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHTML

                                                              I think we ended up here because people want to be able to pull individual assets out of downloaded web pages, and a zip file makes a lot of sense for supporting a single archive with simple extraction of pieces.

                                                          2. 2

                                                            you could inline everything into the HTML if you really wanted everything to be one file, at the expense of load time.

                                                            I suspect it would improve load time, or at least not be noticable: you remove a few round trips, at the cost of adding a couple of packets of data that can’t be cached. 1k of css fits comfortably into 1 packet, and allows for a lot.

                                                            1. 2

                                                              Inlining large images may add considerable load time because Base64 decoding is slower than reading binary files.

                                                              Still, I believe the simplicity of single-file archives loadable in any browser justifies the load time increase and removed the need for custom “web archive” formats.

                                                        1. 8

                                                          This isn’t actually a satire but it’s the best tag for why I’m sharing it, because man oh man is this article so bad it’s good. Here’s just a sample:

                                                          This role covers a multitude of coding languages. At the front-end, a Full Stack Java developer uses HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. At the back-end, they will use PHP and Python.

                                                          And that’s just the second paragraph! I love this article so much.

                                                          1. 3

                                                            After scanning the article without having noticed the submitter or the tags, I hit back to flag it as spam. I’ve never been so happy to be wrong. This is an MST3K-worthy lobste.rs post. That might even be a good tag to request, come to think of it…

                                                            1. 2

                                                              honestly wondering if article this is some GPT-esque AI generated SEO nonsense 🤔

                                                              1. 2

                                                                The posting referenced no longer exists. Maybe it was satire?

                                                                Edit: Someone suggested it could be SEO bait.

                                                                1. 3

                                                                  Still exists for me, and probably works for SEO, but exposing your complete ignorance of the fields that you purport to specialize in seems more like anti-advertising than promotion, no matter how many keywords you throw in.

                                                                  1. 2

                                                                    Totally SEO bait, but SEO bait that stumbled into magnificence

                                                                  2. 1

                                                                    I don’t want to pile on this poor recruiter (assuming they even see this) but yes this is solid gold. I didn’t understand the mechanics until I saw the real rate card of recruiters. Money. :)

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      This piece was beautiful. I came here to rant about people who think working at the very top levels of abstraction makes them a ‘full-stack’ developer, but the article just sums up my complaints so perfectly.

                                                                    1. 6

                                                                      Maybe this (black and white mode) could be feature of a terminal emulator – rather than modifying every piece of software. e.g. Konsole has color schemes, where you can setup one, that ignores colors. ANSI metadata can be still present in the output stream of a program. It is similar to a web browser where you turn off CSS styles – the CSS metadata may be still present in the markup, just silently ignored.

                                                                      If we are talking about redirecting the output stream to another process or file – the program can detect, whether STDOUT is a terminal or not… and many programs do this (then simple | cat will remove the colors). If there are still some unwanted colors, there is a Perl one-liner:

                                                                      perl -pe 's/\e\[?.*?[\@-~]//g'
                                                                      
                                                                      1. 1

                                                                        I think setting your terminal to use a monochrome theme would be a quick workaround. I don’t know of any terminals that have it as a default theme option, but it might make for a reasonable first PR if anyone’s interested on working on it!

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          I knew someone who hacked suckless term to disable all color escapes/make them do nothing so the terminal was, always, black and white regardless of the program.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          What content in this article makes it relevant? How does this help anyone be a better programmer or software practitioner?

                                                                          1. 6

                                                                            I think it’s relevant for people looking to the RSA group as an authority on cryptography. the fact that they are willing to promote stuff like this calls into question their technical knowledge.

                                                                            1. 2

                                                                              It’s also an illuminating example how hustling and money can override even most basic technical common sense.

                                                                              Next time you see a proposal to replace X with a blockchain, and you wonder why would that make sense, remember there may be a “30-year veteran in the blockchain space” making it happen.

                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                there may be a “30-year veteran in the blockchain space” making it happen.

                                                                                Well, blogging and tweeting, maybe. A “white paper”, at most. There’s a lot of hot air in this space, and it’s not all generated by mining rigs.

                                                                          1. 2

                                                                            The “trending on artstation” bit is hilarious. I wonder what happens if you ask it to draw “an image of X, but drawn really good”.

                                                                            1. 4
                                                                              1. 2

                                                                                amazing

                                                                                i guess it just makes it look like a regular old drawing

                                                                              2. 3

                                                                                I suspect “Drawn really good” is more likely to be attached ironically to something thrown together quickly in mspaint, which could give really interesting results…

                                                                              1. 9

                                                                                In video games, an oft-overlooked accessibility feature that also gets constant use is the ability to remap input to different keys/buttons. It’s so overlooked that I feel people don’t even realize it’s actually an accessibility feature, because so many people take advantage of it for simple things like, “Why would you set run to this?” The reason it’s an accessibility feature is that it allows people without the fine-motor skills to hit certain buttons or key combinations to reconfigure their input to something they can use, but again, we don’t realize that because it’s so obviously something that’s beneficial to the vast majority of players regardless.

                                                                                At its core, accessibility is about customizability, something that shows a respect by the developer for the end-user. Good customizability doesn’t even need to fully understand a cause for the need to customize (“I’m deaf” vs. “I want to eat chips”), it just needs to understand that someone has occasion to want that choice. Obviously there are accessibility features that would see more limited use outside of the direct need they’re addressing (color-blind options come to mind), but it seems to me that if your commercial software struggles to implement that particular feature then it’s a failure of software design; you hard-coded your text, or your color scheme, or your inputs, and now you feel the friction of the assumptions that went into that.

                                                                                I wonder if it wouldn’t be an easier sell to teach developers about the value of customizability as a quality indicator for their software more than trying to compel via the more moral arguments about accessibility.

                                                                                1. 4

                                                                                  Remapping is quite big in PC gaming – from the Quake tradition of console/autoexec binds that still persists in even very distant descendants like CS:GO to the bindings editor in SteamVR, there are lots of amazing examples, but even the average 2000s console port usually has some mapping menu.

                                                                                  easier sell to teach developers about the value of customizability

                                                                                  Well, for big serious products, you might have to deal with something else: not developers ignoring customizability, but business/marketing heads being obsessed with Bringing a Complete Vision™ and Unified Experience®, i.e. specifically selling non-customizability as a feature.

                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                    Obviously there are accessibility features that would see more limited use outside of the direct need they’re addressing (color-blind options come to mind)

                                                                                    I have a non-accessibility use for color-blindness support: my telephone is primarily an e-reader, so I got one with a black and white e-ink screen. I was shocked, shocked! at how dramatically that narrowed my software options. (Totally worth it, though.)

                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                      interesting, which model is it? my current phone is slowly dying and I’m considering buying something weird to replace it.

                                                                                      1. 2

                                                                                        Hisense A5 pro. It does not officially support Google Services Framework. There are guides online for how to get it kind of mostly working. I’m okay with that, but YMMV.

                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                    similarly, I’ve had a lot of ideas about making stuff like a collaborative online notepad or web hosting space but every time I think about bots abusing them and I give up on the idea.

                                                                                    1. 6

                                                                                      I know this doesn’t completely ban them, but I think a web without images and video is much worse off for it. I remember clearly how the web was in 1995 and the wealth of visual imagery we have now seemed like far-future fantasy. I’d love for there to be fewer (to no) ads and lighter page weights and more easily accessible information for more people, but I absolutely do not hanker after Times New Roman on a white background with no images, the ‘90s can keep that. And little to no JS on forms, so we have to round trip every bit of validation? No thanks. The motivation is totally valid but this just seems way over the top. Sure, let’s come up with proper standards for progressive web, and let’s use them. The web will be better off for it. But let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Apart from anything else it comes across as overly zealous and naïve, hence reducing the strength of its argument.

                                                                                      1. 1

                                                                                        If all validation is done client side, then you’re opening up your server to be abused by criminals who will bypass your client side validation. And there’s plenty of standards for the web, even the “progressive” web. It’s just that everybody has a different set of features they want, and want to exclude all else. I know this because I was involved in the Gemini community for a time and everybody wants to extend Gemini, just in a different way.

                                                                                        1. 6

                                                                                          I don’t think the argument was that client side validation should replace server side validation, just that the addition of client side validation (where it makes sense) greatly improves the UX.

                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                            100%. I dig purity too but I like it served with a thick slice of pragmatism :-)

                                                                                            1. 2

                                                                                              +1, try submitting a fiddly form that only has server-side validation over a slow/unreliable network. client-side navigation and validation can make a site bearable to use in these circumstances.

                                                                                        1. 22

                                                                                          I don’t generally think that going “backward” along the timeline is the answer. I don’t think the web was strictly “better” in the 90s. It was different, for sure, but there were a ton of things that sucked. And I don’t think the web today is strictly “worse”. There are a ton of things that suck, but there are also a lot of things that are awesome.

                                                                                          For example, I want images and video. I also want JavaScript and web apps. What I don’t want is a simple blog post that has to show a loading spinner while it downloads 50MB of static assets and then autoplays a video ad. But that has nothing to do with the available technologies, people also created obnoxious, unusable websites in the 90s. And taking away JavaScript and video is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

                                                                                          1. 3

                                                                                            This is a good description of how I feel as well, but I’m not sure which incentives would help us get there. On the one hand technical measures like ranking these sites higher in search results might help, but the obnoxious ads situation is perhaps a matter of finding a compensation model for online content which works for both sides.

                                                                                            1. 5

                                                                                              I don’t think we can expect businesses to incentivize this sort of stuff. there isn’t any money in this.

                                                                                          1. 5

                                                                                            This seems fun, and maybe a good tool for build proof of concepts. But I hardly see it as being useful for large projects. Or have I become old and grumpy?

                                                                                            1. 13

                                                                                              As a stranger on the internet, I can be the one to tell you that you are old and grumpy.

                                                                                              Ruby is definitely unusable without syntax highlighting… (Sadists excepted) Java is definitely unusable without code completion… (Sadists excepted) Whatever comes next will probably be unusable without this thing or something like it.

                                                                                              1. 9

                                                                                                I’m confused… Ruby has one of the best syntaxes to read without highlighting. Not as good as forth, but definitely above-average

                                                                                                1. 3

                                                                                                  Well, this is the internet. Good luck trying to make sense of every take.

                                                                                                  1. 2

                                                                                                    I used to think this way. Then I learned Python and now I no longer do.

                                                                                                    When I learned Ruby I was coming from Perl, so the Perl syntactic sugar (Which the Ruby community now seems to be rightly fleeing from in abject terror) made the transition much easier for me.

                                                                                                    I guess this is my wind-baggy way of saying that relative programming language readability is a highly subjective thing, so I would caution anyone against making absolute statements on this topic.

                                                                                                    For instance, many programmers not used to the syntax find FORTH to be an unreadable morass of words and punctuation, whereas folks who love it inherently grok its stack based nature and find it eminently readable.

                                                                                                    1. 1

                                                                                                      Oh, sure, I wasn’t trying to make a statement about general readability, but about syntax highlighting.

                                                                                                      For example, forth is basically king of being the same with and without highlighting because it’s just a stream of words. What would you even highlight? That doesn’t mean the code is readable to you, only that adding colour does the least of any syntax possible, really.

                                                                                                      Ruby has sigils for everything important and very few commonly-used keywords, so it comes pretty close also here. Sure you can highlight the few words (class, def, do, end, if) that are in common use, you could highlight the kinds of vars but they already have sigils anyway. Everything else is a method call.

                                                                                                      Basically I’m saying that highlighting shines when there are a lot of different kinds of syntax, because it helps you visually tell them apart. A language with a lot of common keywords, or uncommon kinds of literal expressions, or many built-in operators (which are effectively keywords), that kind of thing.

                                                                                                      Which is not to say no one uses syntax highlighting in ruby of course, some people find that just highlighting comments and string literals makes highlighting worth it in any syntax family, I just felt it was a weird top example for “syntax highlighting helps here”.

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                                                                                                        Thank you for the clarification I understand more fully now.

                                                                                                        Unfortunately, while I can see where you’re coming from in the general case, I must respectfully disagree at least for myself. I’m partially blind, and syntax highlighting saves my bacon all the time no matter what programming language I’m using :)

                                                                                                        I do agree that Ruby perhaps has visual cues that other programming languages lack.

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                                                                                                          ’m partially blind, and syntax highlighting saves my bacon all the time no matter what programming language I’m using :)

                                                                                                          If you don’t mind me asking - have you tried any Lisps, and if so, how was your experience with those? I’m curious as to whether the relative lack of syntax is an advantage or a disadvantage from an accessibility perspective.

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                                                                                                            Don’t mind you asking at all.

                                                                                                            So, first off I Am Not A LISP Hacker, so my response will be limited to the years I ran and hacked emacs (I was an inveterate elisp twiddler. I wasted WAY too much time on it which is why I migrated back to Vim and now Vim+VSCode :)

                                                                                                            It was a disadvantage. Super smart parens matching helped, but having very clear visual disambiguation between blocks and other code flow altering constructs like loops and conditionals is incredibly helpful for me.

                                                                                                            It’s also one of the reasons I favor Python versus any other language where braces denote blocks rather than indentation.

                                                                                                            In Python, I can literally draw a veritcal line down from the construct and discern the boundaries of the code it effects. That’s a huge win for me.

                                                                                                            Note that this won’t eventually keep me from learning Scheme, which I’d love to do. I’m super impressed by the Racket community :)

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                                                                                                          For example, forth is basically king of being the same with and without highlighting because it’s just a stream of words. What would you even highlight? That doesn’t mean the code is readable to you, only that adding colour does the least of any syntax possible, really.

                                                                                                          You could use stack effect comments to highlight the arguments to a word.

                                                                                                          : squared ( n -- n*n ) 
                                                                                                               dup * ;
                                                                                                           squared 3 .  
                                                                                                          

                                                                                                          For example, if squared is selected then the 3 should be highlighted. There’s also Chuck Moore’s ColorForth which uses color as part of the syntax.

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                                                                                                      Masochists (people that love pain on themselves), not sadists (people that love inflicting pain on others).

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                                                                                                        Ah, thank you for the correction.

                                                                                                        I did once have a coworker who started programming ruby in hungarian notation so that they could code without any syntax highlighting, does that work?

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                                                                                                          That count as both ;)

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                                                                                                          Go to source is probably the only reason I use IDEs. Syntax highlighting does nothing for me. I could code entirely in monochrome and it wouldn’t affect the outcome in the slightest.

                                                                                                          On the other hand, you’re right. Tools create languages that depend on those tools. Intellij is infamous for that.

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                                                                                                          You’re old and grumpy :) But seriously, the fact that it’s restricted to Github Codespaces right now limits its usefulness for a bunch of us.

                                                                                                          However, I think this kind of guided assistance is going to be huge as the rough edges are polished away.

                                                                                                          Will the grizzled veterans coding exclusively with M-x butterflies and flipping magnetic cores with their teeth benefit? Probably not, but they don’t represent the masses of people laboring in the code mines every day either :)

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                                                                                                            I don’t do those things, I use languages with rich type information along with an IDE that basically writes the code for me already. I just don’t understand who would use these kinds of snippets regularly other than people building example apps or PoCs. The vast majority of code I write on a daily basis calls into internal APIs that are part of the product I work on, those won’t be in the snippet catalog this things uses.

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                                                                                                              I don’t doubt it but I would also posit that there are vast groups of people churning out Java/.Net/PHP/Python code every day who would benefit enormously from an AI saying:

                                                                                                              Hey, I see you have 5 nested for loops here. Why don’t we re-write this as a nested list comprehension. See? MUCH more readable now!

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                                                                                                                The vast majority of code I write on a daily basis calls into internal APIs that are part of the product I work on, those won’t be in the snippet catalog this things uses.

                                                                                                                Well, not yet. Not until they come up with a way to ingest and train based on private, internal codebases. I can’t see any reason to think that won’t be coming.

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                                                                                                                  Oh sure, I agree that’s potentially (very) useful, even for me! I guess maybe the problem is that the examples I’ve seen (and admittedly I haven’t looked at it very hard) seem to be more like conventional “snippets”, whereas what you’re describing feels more like a AST-based lint that we have for certain languages and in certain IDEs already (though they could absolutely be smarter).

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                                                                                                                    Visual studio (the full ide) has something like this at the moment and it’s honestly terrible. Always suggests inverting if statements which break the logic, or another one that I haven’t taken the time to figure out how to disable is it ‘highlights’ with a little grey line at the side of the ide (where breakpoints would be) and suggests changes such as condensing your catch blocks from try/catches onto one line instead of nice and readable.

                                                                                                                    Could be great in the future if could get to what you suggested!

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                                                                                                                    Given that GH already has an enterprise offering, I can’t see a reason why they can’t enable the copilot feature and perform some transfer learning on a private codebase.

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                                                                                                                      Is your code in GitHub? All my employer’s code that I work on is in our GitHub org, some repos public, some private. That seems like the use case here. Yeah, if your code isn’t in GitHub, this GitHub tool is probably not for you.

                                                                                                                      I’d love to see what this looks like trained on a GitHub-wide MIT licensed corpus, then a tiny per-org transfer learning layer on top, with just our code.

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                                                                                                                        Yeah, although, to me, the more interesting use-case is a CI tool that attempts to detect duplicate code / effort across the organization. Not sure how often I’d need / want it to write a bunch of boilerplate for me.

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                                                                                                                    it feels like a niftier autocomplete/intellisense. kind of like how gmail provides suggestions for completing sentences. I don’t think it’s world-changing, but I can imagine it being useful when slogging through writing basic code structures. of course you could do the same thing with macros in your IDE but this doesn’t require any configuration.

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                                                                                                                    With developments such as GPT-f (found here on Lobsters) around the corner, I suspect AI will be a driving force in increasing automation of many quotidian programming tasks. It’ll be interesting to see how this interacts with the abnegation culture in programming.

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                                                                                                                      the abnegation culture in programming

                                                                                                                      wdym

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                                                                                                                        Simply put, the folks that insist on not using newer technology for various reasons, a demographic that’s quite prominently featured on this site. There’s lots of reasoning that goes behind this abnegation from differing philosophies so it’s a complex thing to describe. Examples include folks that eschew syntax highlighting, IDEs, electron, newer devices, and more.

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                                                                                                                          Speaking as someone who’s had enough exposure to Electron to thoroughly dislike it, but who runs an IDE on new devices with syntax highlighting, I think you may be conflating a few unrelated threads.

                                                                                                                          Why do you consider abnegation of new technology to be central enough to tie these disparate and non-overlapping groups together?

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                                                                                                                            I don’t think these groups are tied together, which is why I said “There’s lots of reasoning that goes behind this abnegation from differing philosophies so it’s a complex thing to describe”. I’m simply pointing out that there is a contingent of folks, often unrelated, who abnegate newer technology for various reasons. I’m interested in seeing the dynamics that emerge here instead of how one particular form of abnegation operates.

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                                                                                                                              Ah, fair enough - I’d read more into your use of the term demographic than you’d intended.

                                                                                                                              For what it’s worth, I’m quite uncertain where I stand on this issue.

                                                                                                                              I’m quite certain that many, perhaps most, authors of free software on GitHub did not intend for them to be used to train a proprietary, commercial, tool like this.

                                                                                                                              On the other hand, one presumably wouldn’t object to someone wishing to better themselves reading that source … and then going and seeking employment writing proprietary software.

                                                                                                                              Should we treat an ML system differently to a human intelligence in this case? If so, why? And where’s the boundary? Would anyone seriously object to a sentient AI doing the same thing?

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                                                                                                                                For what it’s worth, I’m quite uncertain where I stand on this issue.

                                                                                                                                This is natural, I think. The challenges being posed by AI are new and unique, and it’ll take us time to understand how to deal with it.

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                                                                                                                      I’ve finally switched to Vivaldi after this Firefox update. I had to swallow the fact that the engine is based on Chrome, but as I get older I more often choose practicality over ideology.

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                                                                                                                        My “pragmatic choice” was trying Proton for a couple of weeks and getting used to it. But I’ll admit I’m heavily biased and have strong feelings about Browser engine diversity :)

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                                                                                                                          ditto. well, for me it was more about not caring enough to futz around with CSS files. then again, I use a separate addon for my tabs, so this change doesn’t really affect me.

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                                                                                                                          How is the performance for you? I have the same “I’m getting too old for this shit” feeling as you and tried Vivaldi last week. It gets many things right, but on my system it’s just … slow. There’s a noticeable latency in pretty much everything, from typing things in the address bar to closing tabs to, well, almost everything. I’m not that sensitive to these things, but found it very annoying and gave up after a few days. This is on Linux btw, and was also the experience when I tried Vivaldi last year, and the year before that.

                                                                                                                          Brave unfortunately doesn’t allow opening tabs at the end (always next to current), which I find such annoying behaviour and was kind of a show-stopper. I also don’t really care much for all the cryptostuff they’re pushing just a little too much in-your-face. Oh, and scrolling on Linux is kind-of broken in Brave as well.

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                                                                                                                            For me, on NixOS, Vivaldi feels as snappy as other browsers (eyeballing, not measuring).

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                                                                                                                              Yeah, I’m not measuring anything; I wouldn’t care if it’s a bit slower in some benchmark or even uses twice the RAM; as long as it feels good it’s good for me.

                                                                                                                              Do you use X or Wayland btw? Maybe it has something to do with dwm not implementing/using some stuff that GNOME or whatnot does? 🤔

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                                                                                                                                X11 + Plasma, nothing fancy here.

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                                                                                                                                  Is there a particular reason that you’re excluding hardware differences? My first thought when I read GP comment was “their machine is probably fast enough that they don’t notice anything”.

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                                                                                                                                    It could be the hardware, but I can’t really fix that short of buying a new laptop, but I can try adjusting the software to see if it makes a difference. Plus, I just have an average laptop; nothing super-fancy, nothing especially slow (Ryzen 5 2500U) which is probably fairly representative of “the average user”.

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                                                                                                                                      Oh, I wasn’t using “hardware” as a way to discard your claims - quite the opposite. I think that if hardware differences cause an experience difference, then that suggests that Firefox is not optimized for latency/CPU, which (as you may recall from a previous comment) I consider to be the wrong choice.

                                                                                                                                      You shouldn’t need even average hardware in order to get an acceptable user experience.

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                                                                                                                                        Oh, I wasn’t using “hardware” as a way to discard your claims - quite the opposite.

                                                                                                                                        No worries, that’s not how I took it at all. I just mentioned the “average laptop” because I think it’s probably not a hardware issue. Although having an dedicated nVidia card instead of the AMD integrated one may actually make a big difference, so idk 🤷

                                                                                                                                        I had performance problems with Firefox before that didn’t exist under GNOME or KDE; this turned out to be caused by xf86-video-intel driver (no idea why it didn’t show under GNOME or KDE), so that’s why I asked for software setup. I’ll have to try it at some point to see if it makes a difference.

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                                                                                                                                I’m on openSUSE + Nvidia + X11 + KDE, and everything I do simply works. I sometimes open a simple online game which runs faster than under Firefox. Google Maps/Street View is faster. Scrolling feels faster, no latency in tab switching, I even configured the bundled e-mail client, and that didn’t slow things down (although I’ll stay with Firefox, because the Vivaldi one doesn’t have many features yet).

                                                                                                                                MS Teams is slower than under a dedicated Electron app (but fortunately I use it only for 8hrs a day), I had some font scaling issues on the beginning (resolved with --force-device-scale-factor=1), and font kerning in context menus is a little bit off (but other Electron apps + Chrome + VS Code suffer from the same issue).

                                                                                                                                I was an Opera user years ago, so I’m happy with the change.

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                                                                                                                                  although I’ll stay with Firefox

                                                                                                                                  I meant “stay with Thunderbird” ;)

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                                                                                                                                I am also a Vivaldi user (and possibly evangelist?) and it’s the best of the browsers IMO. It gets everything right that I need and has really great understanding of being user-centric. Highly recommend it, even if you’re not overly fond of chrome.

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                                                                                                                                One thing that kinda like you in the eye under non-features:

                                                                                                                                No output quality choice. yaydl assumes that you have a large hard drive and your internet connection is good enough, or else you would stream, not download.

                                                                                                                                I would have thought that if I had a good connection, I wouldn’t care about downloading and could just stream at any time.

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                                                                                                                                  When I’m downloading something then because I want a different quality or target format (mp3), but this is specifically unsupported by them. And more often that not you’ll realize there’s not “highest” version because there are at least two different formats that provide the same resolution and which you can’t compare just by their bitrate..

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                                                                                                                                    Yeah, that’s all well, I agree it’s not as complete feature-wise. What I’ve meant is simply that they say “you have good connection or else you would stream”. And I thought, “well, if I had a good connection, then I might as well just stream, in whatever quality I choose”. Just seemed like a bogus argument for not implementing quality picker.

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                                                                                                                                    I would have thought that if I had a good connection, I wouldn’t care about downloading

                                                                                                                                    I have a good connection (Gbps fibre) and I frequently download rather than stream because YouTube mid-stream ads are now a plague - I’ve seen videos with 5 ad breaks in the first 15 minutes. Or I’m trying to listen to an ambient mix by Cryo Chamber and I get an un-skippable 30s ad for some new severely non-ambient dance pop act. Or just trying to follow a tutorial where every 2 minutes I have to stop what I’m doing and get the cursor over to “Skip Ad” because if I don’t, I’m going to get 3 minutes of [whatever guff it is this week] before the content comes back.

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                                                                                                                                      I’ve been able to avoid ads with ublock origin on desktop and sponsorblock for ‘native’ ads. maybe yt is able to sneak past ublock but i haven’t seen it yet.

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                                                                                                                                        I recommend also the “Enhancer for YouTube” on the firefox plugin store to disable autoplay, theme youtube, have scroll-volume-control, select certain video qualities and most importantly set a default volume as youtube ignores media.default_volume. (You can disable all the additional controls in the settings if you’re overhelmed)

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                                                                                                                                        I’m subscribed so I don’t get to see ads usually, but yeah, I see how it can make a differnce.