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    https://zebmccorkle.u.asymptote.club/

    I write about just about anything that piques my interest or I feel needs to be on the internet. It’s also the de facto Asymptote Club blog (the de jure one I guess would just be the mailing list).

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      Please do not link to this article on Reddit or Hacker News.

      Well, good thing we’re not Reddit or HN!

      On a more serious note, I wonder why he says that.

      1. 2

        I came here to ask the same question. Presumably because they want you to use their comment system to discuss it? But how will you find the article if it’s not linked where someone will find it?

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          HN and Reddit can be pretty toxic, it might just be that the author doesn’t want to deal with that.

          1. 3

            I never got into HN, but yeah, Reddit can get pretty awful.

          2. 1

            Two other explanations based on previous comments people made on HN after their stuff hit front page:

            1. They dont want a work in progress to be seen by that large a crowd of technical and business people yet. A lot of negatives can come from it.

            2. They don’t want their site taken down by the HN Hug of Death. As HN reads it, nobody else can unless they think to hit Wayback. I dont recall if it happens to Medium articles.

        1. 2

          I use a Lexmark Model M with AHK set up to map right control to the Windows key. I love the switches, but honestly the reason why I use it instead of something else is because I got it for free from my school. I don’t really have the money for a custom or customizable keyboard, so I stick with what I have.

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            The author’s tendency toward minimalism is essentially aesthetic. Yes, there could be security benefits in using a smaller codebase, but they might be negated by not using standard tools with lots of eyeballs and many years of development. While I see the aesthetic niceity of a cute, small, minimal system, I don’t see people really needing floppy-disk sized systems these days. People only have so many resources to throw around and minimizing binary size is rarely worth it.

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              Author here. Yep! It is essentially aesthetic, and there is no real need for it. I will definitely admit to that.

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              Would anybody be interested in using this for anything? I probably won’t ever work on it, but it might be a nice learning exercise to get a minimal UNIX-like kernel going and a sliver of a userspace.

              I also have some ideas that other people could work on in their free time instead of me. I don’t have the timestamp that points to the quote, but “if all you have are ideas, you’re an ideas guy” from Programming is terrible comes to mind.

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                Fixed the wording there, I wasn’t saying someone else should go out and make it, just that it’s an idea that I might go ahead with on spare time.

                Also, this post came out of me working on this idea. I spent about a day working on a similar system, Linux-based, and failed to get it close to my size goal. So I decided to throw this out there to see what people think, if I should spend any time working on it, and if there are any glaring issues (which there seem to be).

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                Don’t forget that performance enhancements, security enhancements, and increased hardware support all add to the size over what was done a long time ago with some UNIX or Linux. There’s cruft and necessary additions that appeared over time. I’m actually curious what a minimalist OS would look like if it had all the necessary or useful stuff. I especially curious if it would still fit on a floppy.

                If not security or UNIX, my baseline for projects like this is MenuetOS. The UNIX alternative should try to match up in features, performance, and size.

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                  We already have a pretty minimalist OS with good security, and very little cruft: OpenBSD.

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                    The base set alone is over 100mbyte, though. That’s a lot more than OP wants.

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                      Can you fit it with a desktop experience on a floppy like MenuetOS or QNX Demo Disc? If not, it’s not as minimal as we’re talking about. I am curious how minimal OpenBSD could get while still usable for various things, though.

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                      Modern PC OS needs ACPI script interpreter, so it can’t be particularly small or simple. ACPI is a monstrosity.

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                        Re: enhancements, I’m thinking Nanix would be more single-purpose, like muLinux, as a desktop OS that rarely (or never) runs untrusted code (incl. JS) and supports only hardware that would be useful for that purpose, just what’s needed for a CLI.

                        Given that Linux 2.0.36 (as used in muLinux), a very functional UNIX-like kernel, fit with plenty of room to spare on a floppy, I think it would be feasible to write a kernel with no focus on backwards hardware or software compatibility to take up the same amount of space.

                        1. 3

                          Your OS or native apps won’t load files that were on the Internet or hackable systems at some point? Or purely personal use with only outgoing data? Otherwise, it could be hit with some attacks. Many come through things like documents, media files, etc. I can imagine scenarios where that isn’t a concern. What’s your use cases?

                          1. 5

                            To be honest, my use cases are summed up in the following sentence:

                            it might be a nice learning exercise to get a minimal UNIX-like kernel going and a sliver of a userspace

                            But you’re right, there could be attacks. I just don’t see something like Nanix being in a place where security is of utmost importance, just a toy hobbyist OS.

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                              If that’s the use, then I hope you have a blast building it. :)

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                                It pretty much sounds like what Linus said back then, though, so who knows? ;)

                          2. 2

                            Linux 2.0 didn’t have ACPI support. I doubt it will even run on modern hardware.

                            1. 2

                              It seems to work, just booted the ISO (admittedly not the floppy, don’t have what is needed to make a virtual image right now) of muLinux in Hyper-V and it seems to work fine, even having 0% CPU usage on idle according to Hyper-V.

                              1. 2

                                Running in a VM is not the same as running on hardware.

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                          1. 8

                            At least the perpetrator didn’t test their code. This is one of few instances where not testing code leads to the better outcome.

                            1. 2

                              It’s crazy that Amiga-like OSes are still kicking around. I would try this out, but my iMac G4 apparently isn’t supported.

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                                Stylus is using the same theme database without collecting your history:

                                1. 7

                                  +1

                                  But the problem is: how to ensure that Stylus (or any alternative) won’t become the next “Stylish”?

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                                    I’ve written a couple of my own extensions, partly for this reason. For certain complicated or common needs (like ad-blocking) I have no choice but to find an extension I trust and use it. But in other cases I just end up writing my own because I can’t find something that doesn’t feel sketchy.

                                    Ironically, one of my extensions was recently removed from the Firefox store because there was some incidental code in a dependency (that isn’t used at runtime) that makes a network request.

                                    1. 1

                                      I’ve written a couple of my own extensions, partly for this reason.

                                      This is the “hacker’s approach” that I prefer.
                                      Everyone should be able to hack software for his own need.

                                      For certain complicated or common needs (like ad-blocking) I have no choice but to find an extension I trust and use it.

                                      Well, actually you can also review them, if the sources are available.

                                      1. 6

                                        Well, actually you can also review them, if the sources are available.

                                        Certainly an important part of the process, but both major browsers push updates to extensions silently, and there’s no guarantee that the code my browser runs is the same code that was in the OSS repository. It’s a crap situation all-around, really.

                                        1. 4

                                          This is the “hacker’s approach” that I prefer.

                                          I prefer it too, but as far as I can tell webextensions goes out of its way to make this tedious and annoying.

                                          I’ve tried building webextensions from source, and as far as I can tell there is no way to permanently install them. You can only install them for a single session at a time. (Hopefully there’s a workaround someone can suggest, but I didn’t find one at the time.) It was pretty appalling from a hackability/software-freedom perspective, so I was pretty surprised to see it coming from Mozilla.

                                          1. 2

                                            Idk about mozilla, but I made my own permanently installed extension for an appliance with chromium. Precisely to avoid the risk of updates or unavailability due to internet outages.

                                      2. 4

                                        Consumers should demand that extensions don’t improperly use personal info, and that the browser vendors only allow extensions that adhere to these rules.

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                                          Consumers should demand that extensions don’t improperly use personal info

                                          Do you know any consumer that want extensions to sell their personal info?
                                          I mean, it’s like relying on consumers’ demand for pencils that do not explode.

                                          Yes, they might ask for it… if only they knew they should!
                                          (I’m not just sarcastic: perfect symmetric information is the theoretical assumption of free market efficiency)

                                          1. 2

                                            I was being half sarcastic. Marketing is basically information arbitrage, after all.

                                            But as a practical matter I believe voluntary regulation is the way forward for this. Laws are struggling to catch up, although it would be interesting to see how GDPR applies here.

                                            1. 5

                                              I believe voluntary regulation is the way forward for this.

                                              Gentlemen agreements work in a world of gentlemen.
                                              In a world wide market cheating is too easy. It’s too easy to hide.

                                              GDPR reception shows how much we can trust companies “voluntary regulations”.

                                              Laws are struggling to catch up

                                              True. This is basically because many politics rely on corporate “experts” to supply for their ignorance.

                                          2. 3

                                            In theory the permissions system should govern this. For example, I can imagine a themeing extension needing permission to access page content; but it should be easy to make it work without any external communication, e.g. no network access, read-only access to its own data directory (themes could be separate extensions, and rely on the extension manager to copy them into place), etc.

                                            1. 2

                                              It can leak data to its server by modifying just css, not even touching DOM, by adding background images for example. I don’t know if it’s even possible to design browser extensions system so extension effects are decently isolated.

                                              However, these exfiltration hacks might attract attention easier than plain XHR.

                                              1. 1

                                                Hmm, yes. I was mistakenly thinking of a theme as akin to rendering given HTML to a bitmap; when in fact it’s more like a preprocessor whose result is sent to the browser engine. With no way of distinguishing between original page content and extension-provided markup, you’re right that it’s easy to exfiltrate data.

                                                I can think of ways around this (e.g. setting a dirty bit on anything coming from the theme, or extending cross domain policies somehow, etc.) but it does seem like I was being a bit naive about how hard it would be.

                                          3. 2

                                            Theoretically, you could audit the GitHub repo (https://github.com/openstyles/stylus) and build it yourself. Unfortunately that doesn’t seem too feasable.

                                            1. 1

                                              For this reason I install the absolute minimum extensions. I usually only have privacy badger installed as I’m fairly sure the EFF won’t sell out.

                                          1. 3

                                            I’ve gotten quite the response over the past day, and we’ve jumped from 3 members to 9. I’ve decided that once I notice this post is no longer at the top of the Lobsters front page, I’m going to stop the “open signup” here. Thank you everybody for the input, and special thanks to @lindalap:matrix.org for helping (and continuing to help) with the ToS and privacy policy to stay compliant with <insert regulation here>.

                                            I have to say, this is much bigger and better of a reception than I expected. I guess I have something on my hands here then!

                                            1. -1

                                              Dude I appreciate this a lot hey. As a comp sci student this is pretty useful.

                                            1. 1

                                              Looks like So You Start is just reselling OVH servers. Why not just go straight to OVH?

                                              1. 6

                                                So You Start is an OVH company, it’s their cheaper server line.

                                              1. 2

                                                I like the idea, the problem I have is these services are so critical that losing access would be pretty devastating and I have no idea how long these services will stay running for which is why the only option I can accept is self hosting. I can’t even trust google to host my stuff as they have randomly locked me out of stuff before with no warning or way to contact them.

                                                1. 2

                                                  That’s a completely fair point. Actually, my main email address is Gmail and I just use my Asymptote email for open source development. At this point, I would actually argue against using it for anything mission critical, rather just personal projects and the sort. But I’m hoping that it’s possible sometime in the future Asymptote would be able to sustain itself without me, with other administrators and donation/maybe fundraiser funding, so that it has more of a guarantee of staying alive.

                                                1. 6

                                                  I think this is a fun idea, and I think your stated goal of a middle ground between “everyone uses GitHub” and “everyone self hosts everything” is worth pursuing.

                                                  What could be a killer feature for this though is an API to export all a user’s data in a simple format, say a .tar.gz archive with directories for email, git repos, pastes and CI logs. If you keep your feature set small it should be possible to automate this so users who are interested can just download their archive using cron.

                                                  If I could easily integrate this with my own backup regime, I’d consider using it for real work.

                                                  1. 3

                                                    Easy backup/restore + custom domain would make this really usable. I just can’t see how anyone could use this without planning for when it goes down.

                                                    1. 2

                                                      You’ve hit the nail right on the head.

                                                      Data portability (export/import) and social-graph/link portability (custom domains) are the two preconditions to make this kind of thing work (and why I’m uninterested in having an account on a mastodon server - no custom domain support).

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                                                        All of this is on my personal roadmap, as stages 1 and 2 are mentioned on the website I have a stage 3 in my head which includes all of this. The main roadblock is the fact that Asymptote Club is cobbled together from a bunch of third party projects, and they don’t always have fantastic export support. Though, they are all open source, so I could add support in the future.

                                                        At least at the moment, you can rsync your home directory from the shell server, which includes mail. Pastes are meant to be ephemeral, for example to give someone a crash log, for now. I might be able to write a simple backup tool with the Gitea API to automatically clone a user’s repos.

                                                        As for custom domains, I could potentially add custom email domain support, but I’m not sure how I’d execute custom domains on the rest.

                                                        1. 2

                                                          As for custom domains, I could potentially add custom email domain support, but I’m not sure how I’d execute custom domains on the rest.

                                                          This is gonna be really hard for anything but email. Most apps are not written with this use case in mind :L

                                                          1. 1

                                                            I’ve given some thought to this.

                                                            For apps which store a domain in a config file, you could launch an instance on-demand and terminate it after some inactivity.

                                                            Of course, that could start using a lot of RAM/CPU pretty quickly; much better to use software which was built with this use-case in mind.

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                                                    The underlying factor that caused the github purchase to be a problem was that github was free. As long as the service is free, then selling out is always a risk.

                                                    Why not take the total server costs at the end of the month, divide by the number of users, and charge that as a monthly subscription to keep the lights on? If the system is even marginally profitable, that makes any kind of selling out (via acquisition or selling user data) less attractive.

                                                    If the system is costing the administrators money, then they have a high incentive to sell out.

                                                    1. 11

                                                      Why not take the total server costs at the end of the month, divide by the number of users, and charge that as a monthly subscription to keep the lights on?

                                                      Nah, charge them based on use like in mainframe and cloud models. That’s more fair. Safer, too, for the host. There probably should be a baseline fee that covers administrative overhead or at least contributes something to it. The usage charges go on top of that. There could be some usage that comes with the baseline fee, though.

                                                      1. 6

                                                        That’s an interesting point, and I’ll have to consider it. Though, I don’t see the user base growing enough to make selling out a possibility. My philosophy is that there should be many services like this one to prevent any one from growing too large and making selling out a possibility (that’s why the goal is to make everything open source - if someone wants to clone Asymptote they have my blessing).

                                                        1. 8

                                                          I don’t see the user base growing enough to make selling out a possibility.

                                                          I think the more likely case is it becomes too expensive and you don’t want to keep paying so the service shuts down and many users lose access to their email.

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                                                            You would be amazed how well a donation meter works.

                                                            Have a monthly goal of expenses + overhead. Show it on the homepage. Near the end of each month, if the goal isn’t met, nag the users a bit. Give those who donate some flair or something silly.

                                                            1. 4

                                                              True. In that circumstance I would run a cheap ($2.50/mo) VPS to keep essential services running (such as email) while fundraising.

                                                          2. 2

                                                            Bingo! I’d like to see people putting their effort into distributed alternatives, in the same way that Peertube is an alternative to Youtube ans Mastodon to Twitter.

                                                            1. 1

                                                              What is the fear with github being bought out? Is the prediction that there will now be ads on the site like source forge?

                                                              1. 12

                                                                Asymptote’s existance isn’t because of fear of what Microsoft might do to GitHub. I made it to test out a midpoint between large, centralized services and everybody self-hosting. I don’t think Microsoft will screw up GitHub, it’s just that the discussion around the purchase prompted this idea.

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                                                                  There are many concerns but one obvious one is that they will integrate it with LinkedIn. Software is one of the only professions where you can still find a job without a LinkedIn; M$ will do what they can to change this.

                                                                2. -10

                                                                  We can just make sure that the admins publish inappropriate stuff like ‘women are weaker then men’ or ‘women make less money because they make different choices compared to men’ on its blog every month. Then the site would be ‘unbuyable’ because of the outvogue apparent social position of the owners. The people in the know would know to ignore such posts, but the bad-headline potential of these blogs would poison the site against any future buyouts.

                                                                  1. 1

                                                                    This is a rather sarcastic way of making a reasonable point - what sorts of rules about host content will Asymptote Club (or other similar “middle-ground” services) enforce, and how resistant will it be to social/political pressure to censor content? What if I want to use Asymptote Club’s gitea/CI service to actively develop machine-learning software that’s illegal in some jurisdictions but not others? What if I want to use their matrix service to host a misogynist chatroom because I believe that the accusations that the content of the chatroom actually constitutes misogyny are complete bullshit? If something hosted on Asymptote Club got into the news and invokes a social media shitstorm against it, how much can I trust that Asymptote Club will keep hosting it, and how much do I have to know about the personal politics of zebMcCorkle in order to ascertain that?

                                                                    1. 1

                                                                      Sad fact is that these things being published even in jest still provides fodder to people who do believe this stuff and want to feel justified in their opinions.

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                                                                    Nice. Disroot at https://disroot.org also offer various services, free of charge, and are definitely worth checking out.

                                                                    Disroot is a platform providing online services based on principles of freedom, privacy, federation and decentralization.

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                                                                      I’m going to start this message the same as I am the Hashbang one:

                                                                      I’ve heard of them, and I’m pretty sure I have an account! It’s great that there are multiple communities in this space (Hashbang, Disroot, SDF, etc.), it fits perfectly into my philosophy that there should be many communities rather than single organizations serving tons of people.

                                                                      Disroot’s awesome, and I think I subconsciously took inspiration from them when making Asymptote. My only real issues are that 1) they’re quite large, much larger than my target member count for Asymptote and 2) they describe themselves as a “platform,” which feels more impersonal to me than “community” or “club.” I realize those issues are petty, but as I said above the presence of competition shouldn’t affect the existence of Asymptote.

                                                                      1. 3

                                                                        Thank you for the reply. I hear your reasons :) Indeed, I’m happy to see people forming these communities and offering hosted services, helping others get off of proprietary corporate-owned platforms, onto the libre ones.

                                                                        Another one that comes to mind is @SirCmpwn’s sr.ht.

                                                                        1. 2

                                                                          Oh, that one’s new to me! I might look into the feasibility of switching to some of that software in Stage 2, it seems nice and UNIX-y.

                                                                    1. 7

                                                                      Sweet. There is a similar community here https://github.com/hashbang/hashbang. They provide free shell accounts and I’m told their infrastructure runs on a combination of VPSes/dedicated servers.

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                                                                        I’m going to start this message the same as I am the Disroot one:

                                                                        I’ve heard of them, and I’m pretty sure I have an account! It’s great that there are multiple communities in this space (Hashbang, Disroot, SDF, etc.), it fits perfectly into my philosophy that there should be many communities rather than single organizations serving tons of people.

                                                                        It looks like Hashbang is pretty narrow-focused, though. They have shell, chat, and mail, whereas Asymptote’s focus is anything FLOSS that might be useful to a community, so much wider. Both philosophies have their merits, and I don’t believe that one is better than the other, but they’re certainly different.

                                                                        1. 1

                                                                          I haven’t heard of hashbang.

                                                                          The ones I am familiar with are freeshell and tilde.town.

                                                                          1. 3

                                                                            tilde.town is less of a free shell/hosting provider and more of a social space, though. Asymptote/Hashbang/Disroot are different things to tilde.town.

                                                                        1. 4

                                                                          Neat project. Hope it works out for you. One thing that caught my eye:

                                                                          “and Debian Linux (with non-free disabled) for absolute freedom.”

                                                                          It reads like it’s mandatory or definitely beneficial. Many people who like open source don’t buy into strict avoidance of non-free stuff. I’d say do a dedicated server that makes that optional. Maybe transition straight to a dedi with Ubuntu. Then, Debian is an option. Non-free is always an option for whatever supports it. One of the things that sinks lots of these efforts is they try to, for ideological purposes, further divide or filter would-be supporters and/or paying customers.

                                                                          Personally, I think it’s FOSS-lovers doing that are handicapping themselves against competitors who will use proprietary, open source, or FOSS… anything that gives them an advantage in market. Their advantages often lead to bad things like walled gardens, lock-in, and less FOSS. However, folks supporting OSS or FOSS can similarly integrate anything they can that gives us better experience for users or more competitiveness. Their ends will be more utilitarian where financial success leads to more OSS or FOSS than proprietary stuff. Maybe even replacements for non-free they used but mostly what drives adoption and/or revenue. That’s best route to go if you look at it like game theory where we compete with proprietary sector that’s using more stuff (including OSS/FOSS) and taking more customers than the FOSS-only types. The latter can’t conceivably win if they’re turning away money and users. Even many Linux contributions are paid for by revenue from proprietary software.

                                                                          I say give people options, maximize your revenue/usage potential even if non-profit, encourage things from your ideology, tolerate/support some other things with big payoff, and do what it takes to win even if using non-free.

                                                                          1. 3

                                                                            Personally, I think it’s FOSS-lovers doing that are handicapping themselves against competitors who will use proprietary, open source, or FOSS… anything that gives them an advantage in market.

                                                                            That depends on your goal. I doubt the RMSs and Karen Sandlers of the world worry too much about competitive advantage.

                                                                            1. 3

                                                                              I personally love the idea of FLOSS, and that’s the driving force behind me running Asymptote Club. I’m not running it for it to be successful: I’m a full-time student and something successful would take way too much time. I’m running it to have a community of fellow FLOSS enthusiasts. Based on the comments, I feel I did a bad job explaining that on the website, so I’ve updated it to make that more clear and also dull down the quoted phrasing.

                                                                              Thanks for your input! I might look into running a sort of fundraising, non-invite-only, not as community based, paid service to keep the main club going, but I would like to keep a core set of services running on free infrastructure. And that would be after gaining a few members; I can’t run something like that on my own.